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Old October 8 2013, 03:57 PM   #61
C.E. Evans
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
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Use of Time wrote: View Post

Not really, you are only a non commissioned officer when you reach E-4 in the enlisted ranks. Whatever basic training Starfleet has would most likely produce what starfleet would call crewman. (E1 through E3) Navy calls them Seamen.
Which doesn't change at all what I said above. The term "officer" is not exclusive to commissioned personnel nor even to military personnel.
Fine, but Occam's Razor has to come into play at some point here.
No, it doesn't. It's simply a case that the term "officer" isn't limited to just one definition. It's just a term used to describe either people or an occupation. And that's really all there is to it.

Now, one could argue the specifics of commissioned and noncommissioned officers, but that still falls under the category of the term having more than one actual definition.
Starfleet is obviously modeled after the Navy.
But is obviously not exactly like the U.S. Navy, and does deviate from it here and there. If anything, one can accurately say it's loosely modeled after the USN and cherry picks what aspects it wants to observe.
I have no interest in arguing over such a trivial thing but it comes down to the writer's muddling their way through enlisted terminology on the show. Their job is to write compelling stories for television so I'm not going to hold that against them but that is where the rank confusion stems from.
But from an "in-universe" perspective, there is a case to be made that Starfleet just isn't uptight about using the term "officer" in a generic sense for its personnel since it still allows specifics when necessary.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:13 PM   #62
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Re: Starfleeters?

Is there any example of "Starfleet officer" being used for Starfleet personnel collectively that can't be interpreted as referring only to commissioned officers? Or for enlisted personnel other than O'Brien?
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Old October 8 2013, 04:36 PM   #63
Use of Time
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Which doesn't change at all what I said above. The term "officer" is not exclusive to commissioned personnel nor even to military personnel.
Fine, but Occam's Razor has to come into play at some point here.
No, it doesn't. It's simply a case that the term "officer" isn't limited to just one definition. It's just a term used to describe either people or an occupation. And that's really all there is to it.

Now, one could argue the specifics of commissioned and noncommissioned officers, but that still falls under the category of the term having more than one actual definition.
Starfleet is obviously modeled after the Navy.
But is obviously not exactly like the U.S. Navy, and does deviate from it here and there. If anything, one can accurately say it's loosely modeled after the USN and cherry picks what aspects it wants to observe.
I have no interest in arguing over such a trivial thing but it comes down to the writer's muddling their way through enlisted terminology on the show. Their job is to write compelling stories for television so I'm not going to hold that against them but that is where the rank confusion stems from.
But from an "in-universe" perspective, there is a case to be made that Starfleet just isn't uptight about using the term "officer" in a generic sense for its personnel since it still allows specifics when necessary.
What do you think is more likely? My comparison to the Navy or your comparison to a police force?

From "Family"

SERGEY: Don't call me sir. I used to work for a living.
HELENA: He's joking. The proudest day of his life was when Worf earned his commission.
SERGEY: Can you imagine an old enlisted man like me raising a boy to be an officer?


That is an example of Sergey referencing a commissioned officer while at the same time taking comical umbrage at being addressed as an officer. So when I hear the term "Starfleet Officer" it really doesn't seem to be this catch all term. We rarely see any enlisted personnel in Star Trek except for Chief O'Brien. The references to him being called an officer are usually when he is part of a group or filling a role that would designate him as an officer.

So yeah, the term "officer" has a lot of meanings by definition but when used in Star Trek it seems pretty obvious to me that they aren't referring to a cop or a fortune 500 CEO.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:47 PM   #64
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
What do you think is more likely? My comparison to the Navy or your comparison to a police force?
Both. I think Starfleet that Starfleet borrows things from multiple earlier organizations, but is ultimately its own thing and really isn't a stickler with how the term "officer" is used in casual conversation.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:02 PM   #65
Use of Time
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
What do you think is more likely? My comparison to the Navy or your comparison to a police force?
Both. I think Starfleet that Starfleet borrows things from multiple earlier organizations, but is ultimately its own thing and really isn't a stickler with how the term "officer" is used in casual conversation.
So they have a rank structure identical to the U.S. Navy but they decided to throw in some police terminology for the hell of it? I'm sorry but I see LT Worf not Officer Worf and I see Chief O'Brien not Detective O'Brien.

Call them what you want though. It really isn't that big of a deal. I was an Officer in the Army at one point, I was also called a Soldier. I can be both but Private "Jones" cannot be. I feel the same applies here. It just sounds confusing if you ask me and doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you think about it.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:17 PM   #66
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
What do you think is more likely? My comparison to the Navy or your comparison to a police force?
Both. I think Starfleet that Starfleet borrows things from multiple earlier organizations, but is ultimately its own thing and really isn't a stickler with how the term "officer" is used in casual conversation.
So they have a rank structure identical to the U.S. Navy but they decided to throw in some police terminology for the hell of it?
Um, no. The police analogy extends only to "officer" being a catch-all term for its personnel.

What Starfleet did was loosely model itself after Earth's oceangoing navies and some other organizations, but not everything is the same. Being an organization from another time and place, you'd actually expect some differences here and there, really (even if it's only in the way they commonly address their personnel).
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Old October 8 2013, 05:29 PM   #67
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Re: Starfleeters?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Is there any example of "Starfleet officer" being used for Starfleet personnel collectively that can't be interpreted as referring only to commissioned officers? Or for enlisted personnel other than O'Brien?
Plenty. At various times a ship's compliment is mentioned it's usually followed by the word officers. EG the Enterprise D has 1000 officers, Defiant has 40 officers, Voyager 150 officers and so on.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:40 PM   #68
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Both. I think Starfleet that Starfleet borrows things from multiple earlier organizations, but is ultimately its own thing and really isn't a stickler with how the term "officer" is used in casual conversation.
So they have a rank structure identical to the U.S. Navy but they decided to throw in some police terminology for the hell of it?
Um, no. The police analogy extends only to "officer" being a catch-all term for its personnel.

What Starfleet did was loosely model itself after Earth's oceangoing navies and some other organizations, but not everything is the same. Being an organization from another time and place, you'd actually expect some differences here and there, really (even if it's only in the way they commonly address their personnel).
I'm sorry but you acknowledge that Starfleet is based loosely on the Navy and "some other organizations" but you are adamant that they would change the way they address personnel because?

I figure the term outsiders use to indentify personnel in Starfleet is...Starfleet. For example, crew walks into a bar..."here comes Starfleet." Calling everyone an "officer" even when they are not can be seen as disrespectful to those that take pride in being a non-com or a lowly crewman. Maybe my own history in the military is steering me towards this line of thinking but I have seen some NCO's that are pretty quick to correct you if you label them as an officer in any way.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:02 PM   #69
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
What Starfleet did was loosely model itself after Earth's oceangoing navies and some other organizations, but not everything is the same. Being an organization from another time and place, you'd actually expect some differences here and there, really (even if it's only in the way they commonly address their personnel).
Hear! Hear!

Although I don't think that the structure of a police force really gets to a solid explanation about how individuals off all ranks in Starfleet can be named, it does at least illustrate that there exists a myriad of structures to emulate, depending on the organization's needs. (Enlisted) Crewmen work very closely with commissioned officer in Trek, and probably have a high degree of personal responsibility. The common demonym ought to reflect that.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:04 PM   #70
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

So they have a rank structure identical to the U.S. Navy but they decided to throw in some police terminology for the hell of it?
Um, no. The police analogy extends only to "officer" being a catch-all term for its personnel.

What Starfleet did was loosely model itself after Earth's oceangoing navies and some other organizations, but not everything is the same. Being an organization from another time and place, you'd actually expect some differences here and there, really (even if it's only in the way they commonly address their personnel).
I'm sorry but you acknowledge that Starfleet is based loosely on the Navy and "some other organizations" but you are adamant that they would change the way they address personnel because?
Nothing "adamant" about it. Starfleet does seem to be similar to several earlier organizations, but not actually the same as them. So some things are different. It's not that difficult of a concept.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:32 PM   #71
Use of Time
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Um, no. The police analogy extends only to "officer" being a catch-all term for its personnel.

What Starfleet did was loosely model itself after Earth's oceangoing navies and some other organizations, but not everything is the same. Being an organization from another time and place, you'd actually expect some differences here and there, really (even if it's only in the way they commonly address their personnel).
I'm sorry but you acknowledge that Starfleet is based loosely on the Navy and "some other organizations" but you are adamant that they would change the way they address personnel because?
Nothing "adamant" about it. Starfleet does seem to be similar to several earlier organizations, but not actually the same as them. So some things are different. It's not that difficult of a concept.
It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Person A: This guy on the left is an officer. The guy on the right is not. What do we call them?

Person B: Officers!

How does that make sense? I'm sorry but that would only convolute things.

How about this.

Person A: Hey did you hear about the Officers dinner tonight?

Person B: No, who is invited?

Person A: The officers are invited.

Person B: Great, I'll see you there.

Person A: No, you aren't invited. It is only for officers.

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Old October 8 2013, 06:40 PM   #72
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

I'm sorry but you acknowledge that Starfleet is based loosely on the Navy and "some other organizations" but you are adamant that they would change the way they address personnel because?
Nothing "adamant" about it. Starfleet does seem to be similar to several earlier organizations, but not actually the same as them. So some things are different. It's not that difficult of a concept.
It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Person A: This guy on the left is an officer. The guy on the right is not. What do we call them?

Person B: Officers!

How does that make sense? I'm sorry but that would only convolute things.
It doesn't seem to have confused people for the past 47 years.

It's just a case of one organization having a different general term for its personnel than another. As I said a few times in an earlier post, it doesn't preclude the discussion of specific ranks when called for.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:47 PM   #73
Use of Time
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Nothing "adamant" about it. Starfleet does seem to be similar to several earlier organizations, but not actually the same as them. So some things are different. It's not that difficult of a concept.
It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Person A: This guy on the left is an officer. The guy on the right is not. What do we call them?

Person B: Officers!

How does that make sense? I'm sorry but that would only convolute things.
It doesn't seem to have confused people for the past 47 years.

It's just a case of one organization having a different general term for its personnel than another. As I said a few times in an earlier post, it doesn't preclude the discussion of specific ranks when called for.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I find the term "Starfleet Officers" as a catch all for everyone to be unecessarilly redundant, misleading and possibly disrespectful to the enlisted pesonnel.
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Old October 8 2013, 06:59 PM   #74
C.E. Evans
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Re: Starfleeters?

Use of Time wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

It shouldn't be a difficult concept.

Person A: This guy on the left is an officer. The guy on the right is not. What do we call them?

Person B: Officers!

How does that make sense? I'm sorry but that would only convolute things.
It doesn't seem to have confused people for the past 47 years.

It's just a case of one organization having a different general term for its personnel than another. As I said a few times in an earlier post, it doesn't preclude the discussion of specific ranks when called for.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I find the term "Starfleet Officers" as a catch all for everyone to be unecessarilly redundant, misleading and possibly disrespectful to the enlisted pesonnel.
It's definitely a case of having different opinions. I think Starfleet closely observes some things but plays fast and loose with other things.
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Old October 8 2013, 07:05 PM   #75
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Re: Starfleeters?

Absolutely. Good discussion though.
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