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Old October 8 2013, 08:23 AM   #46
Gov Kodos
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Count Zero wrote: View Post
sttngfan1701d wrote: View Post
I don't think you have to skip the whole thing. Most of the episode the guy is just acting like a confident douchebag like most guys do when they try to chat up women who are not interested. The way he turns violent is very sudden and jarring at the very end.
It's quite a typical situation for rape, though. Some men just can't accept no as an answer. I guess that was even more common back then than it is today.
The whole thing was amazing well done by the actors, but completely uncomfortable to watch. I found the decision to put the scene where they did made it very powerful, but it made the enjoyment of everything else impossible in the show. It makes the scene singularly striking, but so much so that it makes the rest seem very inconsequential. I couldn't watch it again.

With the stigma and guilt society can, and did at the time, impose on women who've been raped, I don't know how much I want to follow this. Done well, this could get far more maddening and uncomfortable, and done poorly or in a shallow fashion will have a whole other poor reception. I didn't expect this, well done by all the actors, but I am conflicted about following this.
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Old October 8 2013, 03:10 PM   #47
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

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It was marketed as seduction and a lot of people called it that. The only person I've discussed it with before felt it was kind of borderline. IMO, she said "no" way too clearly for it to be seduction. She said no when he kissed her in the hallway; she said no when he showed up in her room; she said no repeatedly when he got in her bed. And she gave off no mixed vibes to confuse him (I was really looking for that; I wanted it to be seduction). Yes, she did eventually enjoy it, but that's irrelevant. I'm glad to hear other people are calling it rape, too.
I read that the scene had a lot of lines cut that would have made it a lot clearer
Fellowes said he was not happy with how that scene turned out due to all the cuts so maybe that's why people find it confusing.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:02 PM   #48
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Interesting. But clearer in which direction? Was his intention rape or seduction?
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Old October 8 2013, 04:16 PM   #49
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Well, at first he made advances though they were already accompanied by gestures of dominance like blocking Anna's way. When she made it clear that she wasn't interested and was happy with Mr. Bates he became violent.


Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
The whole thing was amazing well done by the actors, but completely uncomfortable to watch. I found the decision to put the scene where they did made it very powerful, but it made the enjoyment of everything else impossible in the show. It makes the scene singularly striking, but so much so that it makes the rest seem very inconsequential.
Yes, that's true. The rest of the opera singer's scene was almost unbearable to watch. And when all those cosy things like Cora and Robert having their chat in their nice bedroom happened I wanted to scream at the screen, "But what about Anna?"


Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
With the stigma and guilt society can, and did at the time, impose on women who've been raped, I don't know how much I want to follow this. Done well, this could get far more maddening and uncomfortable, and done poorly or in a shallow fashion will have a whole other poor reception. I didn't expect this, well done by all the actors, but I am conflicted about following this.
It's a very heavy storyline for a show like Downton. I hope they'll handle it well but it will be quite unpleasant to watch. Anna will suffer from this for a long time, especially since Mr. Green, the rapist, will in all likelihood show up in the house again, being the valet of Mary's new suitor.
The show has been anachronistic before so other characters might be more sympathetic to her and more sensitive than they would have been in reality but still. I would have preferred the usual, less realistic drama from before, to be honest.

Also, it would have been nice if Anna and Mr. Bates could just have been happy (with just the minor problems people have in marriages) after all the drama they already went through.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:30 PM   #50
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

^ Yeah, they're getting way more than their fair share of trouble.

Given that some/most of the characters were supportive of Mr. Bates when he was convicted of murder, it's possible that someone will support Anna (if she ever gives them the opportunity). Anachronistic, but realistic in-universe.

BTW, if your first paragraph was responding to Serial thread killer and me, we were actually talking about Kemal Pamuk.

Last edited by Tora Ziyal; October 8 2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:53 PM   #51
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Kreacher wrote: View Post
Interesting. But clearer in which direction? Was his intention rape or seduction?
Seduction.
I can't find the interview now I'm afraid. But did you know its based on a true story?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...x-scandal.html
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Old October 8 2013, 06:31 PM   #52
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Yeah, I found that out while I, too, was trying to find the interview. Thanks for looking for it!

I usually couldn't care less about deleted scenes and stuff, but I'd really like to see an extended version of that one someday, to see how "no" was intended to transition into a genuine "yes."
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Old October 8 2013, 06:50 PM   #53
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Kreacher wrote: View Post
BTW, if your first paragraph was responding to Serial thread killer and me, we were actually talking about Kemal Pamuk.
Oh. I kind of overlooked that. Sorry.
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Old October 8 2013, 07:00 PM   #54
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

People are now also saying that Edna has raped Tom, I must admit I can't stand Edna so I tuned out at her scenes.
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Old October 8 2013, 07:00 PM   #55
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Not a problem.

ETA: Oops! That was obviously to Count Zero!

Last edited by Tora Ziyal; October 8 2013 at 08:42 PM.
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Old October 8 2013, 07:06 PM   #56
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Serial thread killer wrote: View Post
People are now also saying that Edna has raped Tom, I must admit I can't stand Edna so I tuned out at her scenes.
Really? Mmh, it looked quite consensual to me at the time but I admit that I'm a bit hazy on the details now.
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Old October 8 2013, 11:41 PM   #57
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

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Serial thread killer wrote: View Post
People are now also saying that Edna has raped Tom, I must admit I can't stand Edna so I tuned out at her scenes.
Really? Mmh, it looked quite consensual to me at the time but I admit that I'm a bit hazy on the details now.
Edna came out and gave Tom a drink. First thing I thought of was that it was drugged and then when she went into his room, that confirmed it for me. She looks to stop at nothing to be with him.
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Old October 9 2013, 12:01 AM   #58
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

Interview with Fellowes about the rape storyline.
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Old October 11 2013, 01:51 PM   #59
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

I'd like to start watching this show. Is there anyway to watch it other than Hulu? I already have Netflix and don't want to subscribe to another online service that is paid. Thanks!
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Old October 11 2013, 09:55 PM   #60
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Re: Downton Abbey ITV1 22nd September 9pm

DarthTom wrote: View Post
I'd like to start watching this show. Is there anyway to watch it other than Hulu? I already have Netflix and don't want to subscribe to another online service that is paid. Thanks!
In the UK its on Netflix can you fool netflix into thinking your in the UK?
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