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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 8 2013, 04:05 AM   #31
Jar Jar Binks
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

In Star Wars, the Empire's emblem looks kinda like a cogwheel.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:32 AM   #32
Geoff Peterson
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:16 AM   #33
M'Sharak
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.
Just so long as they never try to add spinner rims. Do that, and it's over.

Srsly.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:17 AM   #34
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference?
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Old October 8 2013, 05:20 AM   #35
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference?
Turn in your nerdcard at the door. Your picture is on file, so don't even think of coming back.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:57 AM   #36
Robert Comsol
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
Then it would seem you are rather short-sighted. Rest assured that many people here in Germany that know a few things about history had the same kind of allusions.

Of course, what applies in one country doesn't have to apply in another one. No German car buyer had issues with cars nicknamed "Jumper" or "Pajero". However, the "Jumper" didn't sell well in the UK nor did the "Pajero" in Spain...

It's again the same old "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". There had never been a discussion regarding debatable allusions of the UN or the old UFP flag.

However, the moment the introduction of a new and different element was considered (i.e. cogwheel) that should have merited some research whether the cogwheel is a universally unencumbered symbol or not (especially when you align plenty of people in military uniforms under such a flag).

Bob
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Old October 8 2013, 10:48 AM   #37
iguana_tonante
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

The cogwheel is a well-established and pretty widespread symbol of collaboration and operosity. It has been used for decades by societies, unions, organizations, national emblems, and flags, including in one instance for a nazi labour organization. So now nobody can use it again? Better tell that to the Rotary, the ILO, not to mention quite a few political parties and even some countries.

The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?

It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
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Old October 8 2013, 03:13 PM   #38
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
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Old October 8 2013, 05:16 PM   #39
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The cogwheel is a well-established and pretty widespread symbol of collaboration and operosity. It has been used for decades by societies, unions, organizations, national emblems, and flags, including in one instance for a nazi labour organization. So now nobody can use it again? Better tell that to the Rotary, the ILO, not to mention quite a few political parties and even some countries.

The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?

It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
For the reasons you give above, what the flag actually shows me is someone on the design or production team for STID was actually using their imaginations and did some research in coming up with an alternate version of the Federation flag. Perhaps the Federation drew even tighter after the destruction of Vulcan, and the cogwheel exemplifies that.
That said, the only thing that may draw legitimate in universe questions is whether or not the cogwheel symbol works across all or most Federation species. Then again, no one has ever thought a second time about the application of bay leaves or olive braches as universally recognized symbols in the seal, so it must.
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Old October 9 2013, 01:33 AM   #40
Geoff Peterson
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
Or maybe you're overestimating the number of people who know or care about a cogwheel. While the Communist or workers connections might be better known, the Nazi one probably isn't. Abrams is Jewish, so I don't see him using a "Nazi" symbol in that fashion.

I think you you mean 23rd Century. "Archaic" symbols abound in national iconography.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:17 AM   #41
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.
If it's not the point, then why bring up that particular example in the first place?
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Actually, when I saw the cogwheel my first allusion was this particular flag of the German "Workfront"

... all these uniforms ... reminded me again (like the movie from 2009) too much of "Starship Troopers" ...

... and a guy who wants to be the "Führer" with his superior breed of supermen.
(emphasis mine)

The rest...
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
... comes across somewhat as backpedaling after having first (and none too subtly) cried "Nazi!" in order to get people's attention.
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The motto of the Corbettite Order seems to be Ite Animose... a Latin phrase that can be translated as "go courageously." Alternatively, it can be rendered as "boldly go," which bears a striking resemblance to a phrase heard during the opening credits of a certain popular television series.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:24 AM   #42
Geoff Peterson
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.
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Old October 9 2013, 05:52 AM   #43
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

This thread is HILARIOUS!
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Old October 9 2013, 06:10 AM   #44
M'Sharak
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.
Exactly. It's hard to make anything terribly controversial out of symbolism which stands for "cooperative effort toward a common goal" or, put more simply, "working together". If there was anything sinister about the Deutsche Arbeitsfront flag, it had much more to do with the color scheme and the swastika than with the gear wheel symbol, which was very likely adopted there for much the same reason it figured in the emblems of many of the other organizations and entities already named in this thread.
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The motto of the Corbettite Order seems to be Ite Animose... a Latin phrase that can be translated as "go courageously." Alternatively, it can be rendered as "boldly go," which bears a striking resemblance to a phrase heard during the opening credits of a certain popular television series.
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Old October 9 2013, 06:45 AM   #45
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Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

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