RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,684
Posts: 5,430,469
Members: 24,829
Currently online: 394
Newest member: Enabran


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 8 2013, 04:05 AM   #31
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

In Star Wars, the Empire's emblem looks kinda like a cogwheel.
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 04:32 AM   #32
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 05:16 AM   #33
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
It's still "UN inspired" only with the cog added. So they haven't reinvented the wheel, as much as they've add a new hubcap.
Just so long as they never try to add spinner rims. Do that, and it's over.

Srsly.
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 05:17 AM   #34
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference?
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 05:20 AM   #35
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Should I feel bad that I HAVE NO FREAKING IDEA what the original flag looked like and can't really tell the difference?
Turn in your nerdcard at the door. Your picture is on file, so don't even think of coming back.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 08:57 AM   #36
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Why didn't they just stick with the UN inspired UFP flag? No, they felt they had to "re-invent the wheel" () and you see what kind of allusions that did evoke.
As far I can see, it evoked that only for you.
Then it would seem you are rather short-sighted. Rest assured that many people here in Germany that know a few things about history had the same kind of allusions.

Of course, what applies in one country doesn't have to apply in another one. No German car buyer had issues with cars nicknamed "Jumper" or "Pajero". However, the "Jumper" didn't sell well in the UK nor did the "Pajero" in Spain...

It's again the same old "If it ain't broken, don't fix it". There had never been a discussion regarding debatable allusions of the UN or the old UFP flag.

However, the moment the introduction of a new and different element was considered (i.e. cogwheel) that should have merited some research whether the cogwheel is a universally unencumbered symbol or not (especially when you align plenty of people in military uniforms under such a flag).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 10:48 AM   #37
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

The cogwheel is a well-established and pretty widespread symbol of collaboration and operosity. It has been used for decades by societies, unions, organizations, national emblems, and flags, including in one instance for a nazi labour organization. So now nobody can use it again? Better tell that to the Rotary, the ILO, not to mention quite a few political parties and even some countries.

The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?

It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 03:13 PM   #38
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2013, 05:16 PM   #39
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The cogwheel is a well-established and pretty widespread symbol of collaboration and operosity. It has been used for decades by societies, unions, organizations, national emblems, and flags, including in one instance for a nazi labour organization. So now nobody can use it again? Better tell that to the Rotary, the ILO, not to mention quite a few political parties and even some countries.

The nazi used the eagle emblem too, and the ear of wheat. I guess those are ruined too?

It sounds like bitching for the sake of bitching. (aka They changed it, now it's ruined.)
For the reasons you give above, what the flag actually shows me is someone on the design or production team for STID was actually using their imaginations and did some research in coming up with an alternate version of the Federation flag. Perhaps the Federation drew even tighter after the destruction of Vulcan, and the cogwheel exemplifies that.
That said, the only thing that may draw legitimate in universe questions is whether or not the cogwheel symbol works across all or most Federation species. Then again, no one has ever thought a second time about the application of bay leaves or olive braches as universally recognized symbols in the seal, so it must.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 01:33 AM   #40
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.

Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
Or maybe you're overestimating the number of people who know or care about a cogwheel. While the Communist or workers connections might be better known, the Nazi one probably isn't. Abrams is Jewish, so I don't see him using a "Nazi" symbol in that fashion.

I think you you mean 23rd Century. "Archaic" symbols abound in national iconography.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 05:17 AM   #41
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Whether the cogwheel had been used by the Nazis or the Communists (symbolizing industrial production or the industrial proletariat) or others is not the point.
If it's not the point, then why bring up that particular example in the first place?
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Actually, when I saw the cogwheel my first allusion was this particular flag of the German "Workfront"

... all these uniforms ... reminded me again (like the movie from 2009) too much of "Starship Troopers" ...

... and a guy who wants to be the "Führer" with his superior breed of supermen.
(emphasis mine)

The rest...
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Surely the designers knew how to google "cogwheel in flags" and you instantly see the countries or political organisations that used the cogwheel. If they didn't mind the possible allusions, so be it.

One question that remains unanswered: Why an archaic cogwheel in a flag from the 22nd Century? Are cogwheels an essential part of the warp drive systems in nuTrek?

Bob
... comes across somewhat as backpedaling after having first (and none too subtly) cried "Nazi!" in order to get people's attention.
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 05:24 AM   #42
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 05:52 AM   #43
Balrog
Commodore
 
Balrog's Avatar
 
Location: Balrog
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

This thread is HILARIOUS!
__________________
Anybody got some peppermint?
Balrog was Lloyd Dobler
Balrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 06:10 AM   #44
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Why would the designers need to or think of googling "cogwheels in flags" in the first place?
It's just not that controversial an image.
Exactly. It's hard to make anything terribly controversial out of symbolism which stands for "cooperative effort toward a common goal" or, put more simply, "working together". If there was anything sinister about the Deutsche Arbeitsfront flag, it had much more to do with the color scheme and the swastika than with the gear wheel symbol, which was very likely adopted there for much the same reason it figured in the emblems of many of the other organizations and entities already named in this thread.
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2013, 06:45 AM   #45
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: STID Federation Seal Question...

__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.