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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 7 2013, 09:24 PM   #16
J.T.B.
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

drt wrote: View Post
I'm sure that's the "real world" explanation - also, if Decker were in command of the ship, then I'd assume that he'd be in the center seat and Kirk would be standing around to direct the mission itself, which also isn't what audiences paid to see.
That was a problem in TOS: Where is a senior officer supposed go? Real flagships usually have a separate bridge for the admiral, and that would seem to make sense for a starship, too, but obviously back-and-forth by intercom wouldn't be very good dramatically. With the captain sitting in the throne-like center seat, even a honcho like Fox or Ferris seemed kind of subordinate, standing around getting in everyone's way.
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Old October 7 2013, 09:24 PM   #17
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, there are two ways to look at it, in terms of the movie as a fictional construct and in terms of it as part of the putative Trek universe as we understand it today. In the latter context, if we're evaluating it in light of later "discoveries" about how the Trek universe works, we have to interpret V'Ger as employing a warp field/bubble that encompasses its cloud.
I'm OK with the retcon that the entire cloud is within a TNG-era warp field. However, I was thinking in terms of the former context to explain how things were perceived in 1979. I'd forgotten the Making of TMP memo you described (shoot, I don't think I've read it in at least 30 years), although, I do recall mention of the "surfing" part of it now. So maybe there was some idea in TMP that this is how it was working (although, I do like your idea of the cloud being some kind of a subspace effect), but it wasn't really conveyed to the special effects staff, who for the most part kept things surprisingly consistent with how they depicted Enterprise operating. Or perhaps they were going with the assumption that if Enterprise deactivated her warp drives she'd drop out of V'ger's warp bubble unless there was actual or tractor beam contact keeping them physically linked.
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Old October 7 2013, 10:43 PM   #18
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

1) Roddenberry wanted to suggest everyone is open-minded and prejudice-free about sex in the future, but sometimes this point didn't come across. Other times it come as just weird.

2) One word: Kirk

3) Supposedly Vger was travelling too fast for the Klingons to pursue and for the other staships come back to Earth in time

4) torpedoes offscreen, E-9 took more time to assimilate because it's much larger than spaceships

5) Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale

6) see 5 above, also applies
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Old October 8 2013, 04:05 AM   #19
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
2) Why is Decker (and Kirk for that matter) demoted for this mission? There is no reason why anyone needed to be demoted for this event. Indeed, its not totally out of the question for an admiral to take command in such a critical situation.
I seem to recall an article in Trek magazine speculating that the thinking might be: the unknown entities controlling this ship might take the Enterprise crew captive, and in that case, a captive Captain Kirk makes a less valuable bargaining chip than a captive Admiral Kirk. That kind of works as a rationale as long as you don't stare at it too hard. We do see other cases where Star Fleet folks are content to lie about the ranking officers in order to mess with the pests of the week.
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Old October 8 2013, 04:54 AM   #20
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
1) Is there dialogue missing that explains the weirdness regarding Lt. Ilia? The crew get all weird when it is announced that she is Deltan and then we get that "oath of celibacy" statement...yet it has no context. Even in expanded versions of the film where she talks about "sexually immature species" its not really explained what she means. Is this a hold over from the Phase II pilot that would have been expanded more in the series?
The part of that scene that always confused me was when Kirk left the bridge, and Decker tells Ilia "I don't think the Captain meant anything personal." What is he talking about? All I remember Kirk saying to her more or less is that he had the utmost confidence in her.
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Old October 8 2013, 05:17 AM   #21
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Gotham Central wrote: View Post
1) Is there dialogue missing that explains the weirdness regarding Lt. Ilia? The crew get all weird when it is announced that she is Deltan and then we get that "oath of celibacy" statement...yet it has no context. Even in expanded versions of the film where she talks about "sexually immature species" its not really explained what she means. Is this a hold over from the Phase II pilot that would have been expanded more in the series?
The part of that scene that always confused me was when Kirk left the bridge, and Decker tells Ilia "I don't think the Captain meant anything personal." What is he talking about? All I remember Kirk saying to her more or less is that he had the utmost confidence in her.
Probably in reference to her oath of celibacy.
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Old October 8 2013, 08:15 AM   #22
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
The part of that scene that always confused me was when Kirk left the bridge, and Decker tells Ilia "I don't think the Captain meant anything personal." What is he talking about? All I remember Kirk saying to her more or less is that he had the utmost confidence in her.
The novelization clarifies that Kirk had instantly regretted adding, "And in you too, Lieutenant", in response to Decker's comment that Kirk had "the utmost confidence" in him. Kirk was irritated by Decker's words, and they were both trying to deflect Ilia from asking outright why Decker was no longer captain.
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Old October 8 2013, 10:17 AM   #23
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Christopher wrote: View Post
In fact, Puttkamer's model is essentially identical to Alcubierre's, the difference being that Puttkamer didn't actually do the math to show how it could work -- or at least didn't publish it.
Thanks for mentioning that. I think this hypothetical warp drive should be referred to as A & P warp drive, considering that Mr. Alcubierre was not the first to describe the essential idea.

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Old October 8 2013, 03:55 PM   #24
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
5) Given all of the rereleases of older material with new edits, do we know what is considered "canon" about these movies?
You're mistaken about what canon is... and what it isn't. All of the versions of the film and all the edits are canon.
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Old October 9 2013, 10:01 AM   #25
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

I would however assume that, since Vulcan never appeared in it's theatrical TMP incarnation again (outside of the Spock: Reflections comic at night), that the 2001 Director's Cut is the version currently "in continuity". IIRC, the CG Vulcan landscape from TMP-DE cropped up again in ENT: "Home"?
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Old October 12 2013, 03:23 AM   #26
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

RE: the ranks thing, I've always rationalized it as being another holdover from Phase II. I think the concept of Phase II was that Kirk had been an Admiral for a couple years, but his retaking command of the Enterprise was an actual reduction back to Captain (a specially arranged reduction) because he was fed up flying a desk and Admiral Nogura was sympathetic to Kirk's need to be "out there". Kirk being held up as this great hero following the return of the Enterprise from its five year mission was also probably a part of it; if Kirk doesn't want "rank" but rather wants a ship, then public opinion would likely sway towards giving him his damn ship back. So being reduced to Captain makes sense in that context. I can imagine Admiral Nogura sighing, raising his hands in the air, and saying "Okay Kirk, if you want her back badly enough..... you'll have to be demoted of course....."

Decker on the other hand is harder to rationalize. If he's the captain, then he's a captain. He can be temporarily assigned as first officer, but he'll always have the rank of captain and the sleeve stripes to prove it. But we never actually see Decker with captain's stripes, only commander. So what conclusions can we draw? I think Decker wasn't officially a captain yet. He was involved in Enterprise's refit, and he had basically been tapped to be captain following Kirk's recommendation of him to that role, but the papers hadn't quite gone through yet..... so when Kirk steps in and says, "They gave her back to me Will", Decker just has to accept that his promotion hasn't gone through. It also adds an extra dimension to the conflict between him and Kirk.
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Old October 12 2013, 04:11 AM   #27
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Lance wrote: View Post
But we never actually see Decker with captain's stripes, only commander. So what conclusions can we draw? I think Decker wasn't officially a captain yet. He was involved in Enterprise's refit, and he had basically been tapped to be captain following Kirk's recommendation of him to that role, but the papers hadn't quite gone through yet.
An interesting idea but not actually true. And the proof is in TMP itself. When Decker makes his first appearance, he's wearing one of the alternate jumpsuits that has the rank epaulets on the shoulders rather than at the wrists. He's still wearing this uniform when he meets Kirk in the corridor just after the transporter accident. Kirk wears a similar uniform near the film's end. Both uniforms clearly indicate the rank of captain. It's not clear when Decker was actually promoted, but he was clearly a captain by 2273.

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Old October 12 2013, 04:17 AM   #28
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

^Now that I mention it, one thing that's always struck me as somewhat humorous is that we never see Decker sitting in the captain's chair at any point during the film. He's shown standing near it for a few seconds as Kirk and Spock leave the bridge to confront what turns out to be the Ilia probe. But he never sits there while on screen. I don't know if that was done intentionally, but it's yet another way of driving home the point that the Enterprise isn't his ship any longer.

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Old October 12 2013, 01:24 PM   #29
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

That is quite funny. I had forgotten about the alternative uniforms. You're right, Decker was clearly visually identified as a captain when we first meet him, although I still think my theory is right that "the price" Kirk must pay for wanting his old ship back (and everything we know about in the Phase II series format documents assumes that Kirk is indeed a captain for the majority of the episodes, not an admiral-acting-as-captain) is a permanent reduction in rank and being stripped of the assumed privileges thereof. Basically, exactly what happens to him at the end of Star Trek IV, but self-inflicted rather than being as a result of an official hearing into his conduct.

Of course, we must further assume that if Kirk did command a second five year mission between TMP and TWOK, and the ending of TMP certainly implies this, then his 'permanent' reduction to captain for a further five years was in itself only temporary, and a loophole was used to bump him back to admiral upon his second return to Earth.
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Old October 12 2013, 04:45 PM   #30
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Re: Star Trek: TMP questions and observations

Lance wrote: View Post
You're right, Decker was clearly visually identified as a captain when we first meet him, although I still think my theory is right that "the price" Kirk must pay for wanting his old ship back (and everything we know about in the Phase II series format documents assumes that Kirk is indeed a captain for the majority of the episodes, not an admiral-acting-as-captain) is a permanent reduction in rank and being stripped of the assumed privileges thereof.
I agree with this and don't believe Kirk would've been allowed to command Enterprise again without making significant concessions. The conversation between Kirk and Nogura is something I've always wanted to see or read. If their meeting did last only three minutes, one wonders exactly what was said between the two if Kirk came out on top.

Lance wrote:
Of course, we must further assume that if Kirk did command a second five year mission between TMP and TWOK, and the ending of TMP certainly implies this, then his 'permanent' reduction to captain for a further five years was in itself only temporary, and a loophole was used to bump him back to admiral upon his second return to Earth.
Several non-cannon sources suggest that the admiralty was reorganized in the years leading up to TWOK because of several mistakes by Starfleet Intelligence, including a botched mission in Klingon space. Nogura was asked to resign, with Morrow taking his place. Kirk was returned to the admiralty and placed in charge of Starfleet Academy. Eventually, Enterprise was placed under Spock's command and assigned to the Academy. Whether this was a move engineered by Kirk to keep the Enterprise within his jurisdiction or something Spock requested so that he could continue to serve under Kirk isn't known.

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