RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,386
Posts: 5,447,215
Members: 24,973
Currently online: 441
Newest member: turndizy

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Treachery, Faith and the Great River
By: Michelle on Nov 1

Crowded Coop Trek-Themed Bags and Wallets
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Original Series Hoodies
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Star Trek-Planet Of The Apes Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

November-December 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Oct 31

Kruge Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Two Trek Actors In Green Room
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Trek UglyDolls First Look
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

New Star Trek Select Action Figure
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

Trek Actors In Elsa & Fred
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 7 2013, 04:16 PM   #316
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: What Happens After Death

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
It's been ingrained into us historically and culturally that we are something more than our brains, but that's not what the evidence suggests.
Is the sum greater than its parts when it comes to consciousness, or not? You cannot say that as of now, you don't know. There is not enough evidence to make that statement. There's not even an exact definition what consciousness/awareness/sentience is. Thus consciousness can't be measured either, otherwise there wouldn't be any debate about animals or artificial intelligence. Instead we could clearly say: this thing is conscious, this thing is not.

We are biased because, clearly, something is going on with us. But if you ignored for a minute that you KNOW that you are conscious, does outside evidence tell you that you are? Can you prove that another person has a consciousness and is not just a sophisticated drone running around? That is a distinction you cannot make for certain as of now. As stated, this is more a philosophical debate as of now.
Non sequitur. The same one I noted before. The exact nature of consciousness (which I've never claimed is yet fully understood) and the notion that consciousness is not rooted in the brain are two unrelated concepts. We can easily demonstrate that consciousness is brain-based (and I've already noted in this thread multiple ways in which this has been done).
You can say that brain activity ceases, but you cannot say that brain activity is the root of consciousness.
Of course I can. Seriously, just read a teeny bit of neurological research, just a teeeeeeeny bit!
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I hope there is a Missing the Point Championship somewhere. I would hate for such talent to go wasted.
If you don't know the nature of consciousness, how can you say anything about its root? That's a contradiction.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:21 PM   #317
thestrangledcorpse
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangledcorpse's Avatar
 
Location: BOO-klyn
Re: What Happens After Death

^No, it is not a contradiction. We don't fully understand the nature of the immune system, but we safely understand it's roots are biological. We don't fully know the nature of type 1 diabetes, but we know its roots are in an inflammatory immune response. We don't understand the exact nature of consciousness, but we know its roots are in the brain. As I said before, just because we don't know everything about something doesn't mean we discard what we do know.
__________________
thestrangequark

The Enterprise is my TARDIS.
thestrangledcorpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:34 PM   #318
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: What Happens After Death

If we don't know everything, how can we know anything? If we don't know anything, how can we know something? If we don't know something, how can we know everything? If we don't know everything, why should we know?

I'm having stonester's flashbacks.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:36 PM   #319
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: What Happens After Death

^^^ I got one for you - It is all too easy to know what we know and not know what we don't know, stemming from knowledge and ignorance, respectively.

The challenge is in knowing what we don't know. Therein comes wisdom.
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:41 PM   #320
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: What Happens After Death

No, the real challenge comes from not knowing what we know. Try that, if you can.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:42 PM   #321
thestrangledcorpse
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangledcorpse's Avatar
 
Location: BOO-klyn
Re: What Happens After Death

God, I hate philosophers.
__________________
thestrangequark

The Enterprise is my TARDIS.
thestrangledcorpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:44 PM   #322
bigboojeg
Vice Admiral
 
bigboojeg's Avatar
 
Location: bbjeg
Re: What Happens After Death

How can you know what you don't know? You can learn something you don't know but after your learn it you know it, not before. I got to say this is the most frustrating thread ever.
bigboojeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 04:57 PM   #323
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: What Happens After Death

There is so much fascinating stuff that we can't know yet because we don't have the technology to make systematic tests of it.

Like the question if personality changes when you wipe/replace memories. Does your personality change when parts of your brain are destroyed/rendered incapable? If that were true, it would revolutionize the penal system, for example. We don't know because we can't remove, replace or insert memories yet.
But if it turned out that memories do not have an effect on personality, well, shit. Then where would it come from? What if it turned out that recovered Alzheimer patients only lost their memories, but not their personality? We don't know that either because we don't have a cure for Alzheimers yet.

What exactly do people experience during death? We'd need to be able to record and analyze that. Also near death experiences. Also dreams. And coma. We don't know that because we cannot record experiences yet.

What would happen when you reanimate a braindead patient? Could he report anything? We do not know, we haven't been able to do so yet.

Could we find a way to communicate with comatose patients? That would revolutionize the way we treat patients on life support, and affect the decision when to pull the plug.

And who knows, with all that dark matter and dark energy shit, can we really say for certain that a soul/consciousness/sentience isn't something that we just cannot measure yet?

And the age old question. Does a dog have a soul? Does an ant have one? When is sentience sentience? At what point does brain activity result in awareness in the sense we experience every second? That answer would settle the "abortion is murder" debate.

If we knew what sentience was, we would know exactly what we'd have to do to replicate it. And then we'd be able to create truly sentient artificial intelligence.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:03 PM   #324
Ryan8bit
Commodore
 
Ryan8bit's Avatar
 
Location: St. Paul, MN
Re: What Happens After Death

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And who knows, with all that dark matter and dark energy shit, can we really say for certain that a soul isn't something that we cannot measure just yet?
The thing about dark matter is that we know it is there by inference. We can measure its gravitational effects on the rest of the universe.

But souls? There is zero effect that we can measure anywhere. Not directly, not by inference, nothing. If they were an energy, chances are we could measure it. The kind of souls that transcend the body are just made up.
Ryan8bit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:05 PM   #325
137th Gebirg
Rear Admiral
 
137th Gebirg's Avatar
 
Location: Who is John Galt?
Re: What Happens After Death

Big Boo wrote: View Post
How can you know what you don't know? You can learn something you don't know but after your learn it you know it, not before. I got to say this is the most frustrating thread ever.
You can actually know that you don't know something fairly easily. People do it every day without realizing it. It's human nature to fill in the blanks. If we see something we don't understand, we will either a) run away from it, screaming, wildly waving our hands in the air or, b) try to figure out what about it we don't understand in an effort to advance our own personal knowledge. Taking the right path and undergoing the journey generates the wisdom.
__________________
Gebirgswick - Ind, Tra, Sec & Env.

Last edited by 137th Gebirg; October 7 2013 at 05:33 PM.
137th Gebirg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:05 PM   #326
thestrangledcorpse
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangledcorpse's Avatar
 
Location: BOO-klyn
Re: What Happens After Death

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
There is so much fascinating stuff that we can't know yet because we don't have the technology to make systematic tests of it.

Like the question if personality changes when you wipe/replace memories.
Have you ever met a person with dementia? Stroke? Amnesia? Yes, we know personality changes (to varying degrees) when memories are destroyed.
Does your personality change when parts of your brain are destroyed/rendered incapable?
Yes, personality can change if parts of the brain are destroyed. We have known this with scientific certainty since the 19th century and speculated on it well before that. The most famous case is Phineas Gage.
If that were true, it would revolutionize the penal system, for example.
There is currently much debate in psychology and law over the line between criminality and mental illness. This is why people can plead "Not guilty due to mental disease or defect."
We don't know because we can't remove
Really? Have you never blacked out due to a night's heavy drinking? Never taken Ambien? Never had anesthetic amnesia?
, replace or insert memories yet.
Yes we can.
But if it turned out that memories do not have an effect on personality, well, shit. Then where would it come from? What if it turned out that recovered Alzheimer patients only lost their memories, but not their personality? We don't know that either because we don't have a cure for Alzheimers yet.
Have you ever met anyone with Alzheimers? Personality changes are one of the major symptoms!


You have made the mistake of assuming that because you don't know something, no one else does.
__________________
thestrangequark

The Enterprise is my TARDIS.
thestrangledcorpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:07 PM   #327
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: What Happens After Death

Have you ever met a person with dementia? Stroke? Amnesia? Yes, we know personality changes (to varying degrees) when memories are destroyed. Have you ever met anyone with Alzheimers? Personality changes are one of the major symptoms!
How much of it is a true personality change and how much of it is the result of the struggle? If you restore the abilities to memorize things, to speak, to walk, eat, shit, etc... is the personality restored as well? Would it stay altered? Or can you turn Ghandi into Hitler just by replacing his memories?

thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
Not good enough yet, and it hasn't been used yet to test it. We could treat PTSD patients with that. Or open up an entirely new door for psychology. Can you treat social anxiety by implanting memories of successful situations in social environments?


Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And who knows, with all that dark matter and dark energy shit, can we really say for certain that a soul isn't something that we cannot measure just yet?
The thing about dark matter is that we know it is there by inference. We can measure its gravitational effects on the rest of the universe.

But souls? There is zero effect that we can measure anywhere. Not directly, not by inference, nothing. If they were an energy, chances are we could measure it. The kind of souls that transcend the body are just made up.
Well, because there is so much of it that it shows huge gravitational effects. But on a small scale, directly in front of your nose? We assume that dark matter is around here as as well, we cannot see or interact with it.

Last edited by JarodRussell; October 7 2013 at 05:17 PM.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:30 PM   #328
thestrangledcorpse
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangledcorpse's Avatar
 
Location: BOO-klyn
Re: What Happens After Death

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Have you ever met a person with dementia? Stroke? Amnesia? Yes, we know personality changes (to varying degrees) when memories are destroyed. Have you ever met anyone with Alzheimers? Personality changes are one of the major symptoms!
How much of it is a true personality change and how much of it is the result of the struggle? If you restore the abilities to memorize things, to speak, to walk, eat, shit, etc... is the personality restored as well? Would it stay altered? Or can you turn Ghandi into Hitler just by replacing his memories?
Depends on the case study. Brains are extremely complex and sensitive things. They can change drastically due to slight alteration, but can also repair amazingly well. There are thousands, if not millions of case studies showing how people's personality changes due to injury or disease of the brain. Again, you are simply ignorant of the decades of research, both experimental and in the form of case studies, and presuming everyone else must be as well. That's just not the case, this is basic psychology -- like, psych 101 in 1955 basic.
thestrangledcorpse wrote: View Post
Not good enough yet, and it hasn't been used yet to test it.
Maybe you should read the articles before you make stupid claims. Or did you read those articles in the two minutes it took you to reply to my post? Amazing! If those three aren't enough evidence for you (and I'll except that, three studies isn't a lot, those were just the first three that showed up.) I'd be happy to share some more. There are at least 100 here. And here are some blog posts by Yale neurologist, Dr Steven Novella, which cite even more. Or you could get a basic psych text book. Or, you know, google it. You don't even need to directly manipulate the brain to implant false memories. Researches implanted false memories of a hot air balloon ride in subjects just by showing them a photoshopped image of themselves as children in a balloon. This has been proved over and over. Read the research before you claim it's "not good enough." Shit, I was doing memory alteration experiments as a freaking undergrad in brain science. This is really, really basic stuff.

Get back to me after you've read at least something on the subject of psychology or brain function, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
__________________
thestrangequark

The Enterprise is my TARDIS.
thestrangledcorpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:35 PM   #329
thestrangledcorpse
Vice Admiral
 
thestrangledcorpse's Avatar
 
Location: BOO-klyn
Re: What Happens After Death

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
...
Or, with more brevity:

__________________
thestrangequark

The Enterprise is my TARDIS.
thestrangledcorpse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 05:38 PM   #330
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: What Happens After Death

I was talking about wiping, replacing and then (importantly) restoring the memories you wiped/replaced (in order to test the effects on personality). And that on a large scale. That can't be done as of yet.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.