RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,418
Posts: 5,506,469
Members: 25,130
Currently online: 410
Newest member: 2278

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 24 2013, 04:51 AM   #31
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

And then the Metrons go and more or less act like really arrogant humans who just felt like having fun by having two "lesser beings" play Celebrity Deathmatch.

Instead of coming off as "Incomprehensible Aliens", the Metrons just come off as jackasses who were bored and wanted some bloodsport.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 09:23 AM   #32
CrazyMatt
Captain
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Looking down the maw....
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

ixfd64 wrote: View Post
But suppose Kirk called the Metrons out by saying something along the following: "You say we are 'savages' because we have a right to defend ourselves [from what Kirk saw as a threat], yet you make us fight for your entertainment. That's something only the ancient cultures did. What makes you better than them?"
How do you think the Metrons would have responded?
"Obviously, you are an impertinent race of snotty violent children. We will send you to bed without supper and spank you all if you ever act up again... especially your females."

__________________
"All I want for Christmas is my crew not ate!"
CrazyMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 02:19 PM   #33
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

Anwar wrote: View Post
And then the Metrons go and more or less act like really arrogant humans who just felt like having fun by having two "lesser beings" play Celebrity Deathmatch.

Instead of coming off as "Incomprehensible Aliens", the Metrons just come off as jackasses who were bored and wanted some bloodsport.
I see nothing in the episode that supports that interpretation. Here is the entirety of the Metrons' dialogue from the episode:

METRON [OC]: We are the Metrons. You are one of two crafts which have come into our space on a mission of violence. This is not permissible. Yet we have analysed you and have learned that your violent tendencies are inherent. So be it. We will control them. We will resolve your conflict in the way most suited to your limited mentalities. Captain James Kirk.
KIRK: This is Kirk.
METRON [OC]: We have prepared a planet with a suitable atmosphere. You will be taken there, as will the Captain of the Gorn ship which you have been pursuing. There you will settle your dispute.
KIRK: I don't understand.
METRON [OC]:You will be provided with a recording-translating device, in hopes that a chronicle of this contest will serve to dissuade others of your kind from entering our system, but you will not be permitted to communicate with your ship. You will each be totally alone.
KIRK: What makes you think you can interfere with
METRON [OC]: It is you who are interfering. We are simply putting a stop to it. The place we have prepared for you contains sufficient elements for either of you to construct weapons lethal enough to destroy the other, which seems to be your intention. The winner of the contest will be permitted to go his way unharmed. The loser, along with his ship, shall be destroyed in the interests of peace. The contest will be one of ingenuity against ingenuity, brute strength against brute strength. The results will be final.
KIRK: Just a minute
METRON [OC]: There will be no discussion. It is done.

...

METRON [OC]: We are the Metrons. Your Captain is losing his battle. We would suggest you make whatever memorial arrangements, if any, which are customary in your culture. We believe you have very little time left.
MCCOY: We appeal to you in the name of civilisation. Put a stop to this.
METRON [OC]: Your violent intent and actions demonstrate that you are not civilised. However, we are not without compassion. It is possible you may have feelings toward your Captain. So that you will be able to prepare yourself, we will allow you to see and hear what is now transpiring.

...

METRON: Does my appearance surprise you, Captain?
KIRK: You seem more like a boy.
METRON: I am approximately fifteen hundred of your Earth years old. You surprise me, Captain.
KIRK: How?
METRON: By sparing your helpless enemy who surely would have destroyed you, you demonstrated the advanced trait of mercy, something we hardly expected. We feel there may be hope for your kind. Therefore, you will not be destroyed. It would not be civilised.
KIRK: What happened to the Gorn?
GORN: I sent him back to his ship. If you like, I shall destroy him for you.
KIRK: No. That won't be necessary. We can talk. Maybe reach an agreement.
METRON: Very good, Captain. There is hope for you. Perhaps in several thousand years, your people and mine shall meet to reach an agreement. You are still half savage, but there is hope. We will contact you when we are ready.
There is not a single word there which suggests that the Metrons themselves are taking enjoyment from this.

It looks to me more like they were applying a rather unusual variant of the Prime Directive. "We disapprove of your primitive violence, but we respect your cultures' right to choose your own course, so we'll let you play out your violent confrontation, but we will mediate the contest and arrange things so that you can quickly arrive at a decisive conclusion with a minimum of collateral damage."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 02:54 PM   #34
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^If their motives and choices were entirely comprehensible in human terms, they wouldn't be aliens. That, too, was part of the point. Sometimes coexisting with another culture requires broadening your standards of what constitutes a morally forgivable act. How else did the Federation learn, later on, to become allies with the Klingons?

Here you just try to excuse lazy writing with an ~"it doesn't make sense - but that's OK".

The gorn were unequivocally in the wrong. Any other interpretation de facto gives them carte blanche to commit mass-murder because 'it's their way' and therefore morally OK.
If that constitutes a 'morally forgivable act', then ANY act is morally forgivable. Including, for example, a dictator exterminating earth, or some thugs killing your family because 'it's fun', etc - after all, it's their way, yes?
If you push your moral relativism to this point where everything is morally OK because 'it's their way', then your morals are worthless; indeed, you have no morals beyond acceptance of being trampled by anyone, Christopher.

And the intent of the scenarists was NOT to depict the gorn unequivocally in the wrong - not even by human morals - that's why they put the part with the main characters having doubts about their actions, etc.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 03:11 PM   #35
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

Christopher wrote: View Post
METRON: I am approximately fifteen hundred of your Earth years old. You surprise me, Captain.
KIRK: How?
METRON: By sparing your helpless enemy who surely would have destroyed you, you demonstrated the advanced trait of mercy, something we hardly expected. We feel there may be hope for your kind. Therefore, you will not be destroyed. It would not be civilised.
KIRK: What happened to the Gorn?
GORN: I sent him back to his ship. If you like, I shall destroy him for you.
KIRK: No. That won't be necessary. We can talk. Maybe reach an agreement.
METRON: Very good, Captain. There is hope for you.
Allow me to summarize this (which I frankly find rather confusing):
  • The Metron makes it clear that "you" (Enterprise and Gorn ship) will not be destroyed because Kirk demonstrated "a trait of mercy" (destroying the Enterprise would reveal the Metrons don't have that and make them inferior) and did not want to kill the Gorn (destroying the Gorn ship would reveal the Metrons to be inferior to Kirk and they will not loose face)
  • The Metrons nevertheless confess that they lied, as they would have destroyed both ships had the Gorn managed to kill Kirk (apparently lying is civilised but ignoring a show of mercy is not? )
  • Although Kirk had apparently passed a character test (I will not kill) the Metrons nevertheless tempt him again (or test his intelligence): "If you like, I shall destroy the Gorn captain for you." I don't want to imagine what would have happened next, had Kirk said "Go ahead!"
Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 05:34 PM   #36
Irishman
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
But the Metrons ultimately didn't have any cultural differences from us, at least we didn't see any. They even spared both because they recognized Kirk's act of Mercy and consideration which are things humans believe in as well.
What? Just because they had one or two similarities, you're assuming they had no differences? That doesn't even make sense.
As documentary evidence, we only know of the Metrons that which we're shown in the episode.
Irishman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24 2013, 06:25 PM   #37
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

^But the burden of proof is being applied backward. As I said, the default expectation should be that an alien species would not think or act like humans, not that it would.

And as I've said, I think the very fact that the Metrons responded to the intrusion on their space in the odd, elaborate way that they did is more than sufficient evidence that they don't do things the same way a typical human government would.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2013, 08:12 PM   #38
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

Oh, if only the Metrons would show up in Washington DC about now...
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 08:20 AM   #39
CrazyMatt
Captain
 
CrazyMatt's Avatar
 
Location: Looking down the maw....
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

publiusr wrote: View Post
Oh, if only the Metrons would show up in Washington DC about now...
They'd go ahead and destroy us for sure!
__________________
"All I want for Christmas is my crew not ate!"
CrazyMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2013, 10:37 AM   #40
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: what if Kirk called the Metrons out on their hypocrisy?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
Oh, if only the Metrons would show up in Washington DC about now...
They'd go ahead and destroy us for sure!
No, we'd be doing the job. If aliens revealed to ourselves they existed, it would totally split the human race. Some would say these are our saviors, others would say they are of the devil and we'd have "religious" wars on a completely different level.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.