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Old October 6 2013, 11:54 PM   #376
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post.
Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?
Yes, that is largely true for the populace and government, though I'd argue the majority of American liberals on TrekBBS lean further to the left than the general public (when we do the political compass tests around here every so often, American liberals are usually just as far to the left as their European counterparts). However, it is irritating at times to see American liberals frequently labelled as centrists by assumption when they're advocating for the same things European liberals are (like single-payer health care for a relevant example). They just aren't always able to get it because there is a strong obstructionist opposition.

But since the poster in question is further to the right of European liberals, American liberals, American centrists, moderate Republicans, and most other conservatives; since my post was clearly referring to left wing posters of all backgrounds, and since my point was not about measuring the actual strength in numbers of both sides of the political spectrum on TrekBBS but simply saying you don't need to drown out your opponents with an excessive number of posts, I'm a little lost on what your question has to do with what I posted.

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
You don't really get how democracy works, do you?
The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.
That's a cutesy gotcha answer that's meant to look smart but doesn't actually contradict his point at all. Yes, the US is not a "pure/direct democracy" because the people do not decide policy directly at the federal level (though some states do with ballot initiatives and so forth), but rather through elected representatives. But it is a democracy in the more general sense in that the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them.
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Last edited by Locutus of Bored; October 7 2013 at 12:09 AM.
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Old October 6 2013, 11:55 PM   #377
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Democracy comes in many forms, Broadly Democracy means

A form of Government which allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws.

So USA is a democracy under the broad definition of democracy.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:04 AM   #378
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Im N Ur Childhoodz wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post.
Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?
Yes, that is largely true for the populace and government, though I'd argue the majority of American liberals on TrekBBS lean further to the left than the general public (when we do the political compass tests around here every so often, American liberals are usually just as far to the left as their European counterparts). However, it is irritating at times to see American liberals frequently labelled as centrists by assumption when they're advocating for the same things European liberals are (like single-payer health care for a relevant example). They just aren't always able to get it because there is a strong obstructionist opposition.

But since the poster in question is further to the right of European liberals, American liberals, American centrists, moderate Republicans, and most other conservatives; since my post was clearly referring to left wing posters of all backgrounds, and since my point was not about measuring the actual strength in numbers of both sides of the political spectrum on TrekBBS but simply saying you don't need to drown out your opponents with an excessive number of posts, I'm a little lost on what your question has to do with what I posted.
You were saying that the members of the board are largely liberal, perhaps it would be more accurate to say largely liberal by American standards. As has been mentioned posters from other countries outside of the USA find themselves agreeing more with the Democratic Party viewpoint, whilst in their home country they might be to the centre/centre-right of the policitcal spectrum. i.e. not liberal.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:12 AM   #379
iguana_tonante
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Carcazoid wrote:
You don't really get how democracy works, do you?
The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.
Oh, how I love this.

I'll just quote one of the many posts I have made on that regard (and be grateful it's not the longest or the most scating):

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The United States is not a Democracy and never has been. It's a Republic.
Urgh. No. The US is both a republic (a form of state in which the country is considered a "common good" and not the legal propriety of the sovereign) and a democracy (a system of governing in which all citizens have an equal say in the choices of government). I don't know why this is so difficult for some people.
Open a book, will ya?
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Old October 7 2013, 12:19 AM   #380
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

MacLeod wrote: View Post
You were saying that the members of the board are largely liberal, perhaps it would be more accurate to say largely liberal by American standards. As has been mentioned posters from other countries outside of the USA find themselves agreeing more with the Democratic Party viewpoint, whilst in their home country they might be to the centre/centre-right of the policitcal spectrum. i.e. not liberal.
You're absolutely right. That was an incredibly important distinction to make right at the moment when I was talking to a conservative American poster about the Multi-Quote function. It really clarified that debate no one was having.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:20 AM   #381
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote:
You don't really get how democracy works, do you?
The United States is not a "democracy." It is a constitutional republic. Look it up.
Oh, how I love this.

I'll just quote one of the many posts I have made on that regard (and be grateful it's not the longest or the most scating):

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
The United States is not a Democracy and never has been. It's a Republic.
Urgh. No. The US is both a republic (a form of state in which the country is considered a "common good" and not the legal propriety of the sovereign) and a democracy (a system of governing in which all citizens have an equal say in the choices of government). I don't know why this is so difficult for some people.
Open a book, will ya?
I actually looked it up like he asked. It goes to a bunch of blogs made by the Cult of Ron Paul, Conservapedia and a ton of other rightwing ramblings. I think they like bringing it up because they think it makes them sound smart when someone says the US is a democracy because the word Republic is in the Constitution.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:23 AM   #382
nightwind1
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Im N Ur Childhoodz wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
snip
What is it about conservative posters that they consistently refuse to use the Multi-Quote function? Is it because the Founding Fathers chose not to include it in the Constitution? Is it because it was originally a socialist program designed to consolidate individual freedom-loving posts into one big bloated entity? Is it because the board software was secretly developed in Kenya and given fake licensing in America?

Yanks, your posts alone represent about a third of the posts on this page, they're as often as not just one or two line sarcastic or cliche replies with little in the way of debatable content, and they're frequently posted one right after another or in short succession. It's the internet equivalent of shouting down the opposition to drown out their message. Now, I get that it's a largely liberally slanted board, but that doesn't mean you have to overcompensate in the other direction by matching all of them post for post. Quality over quantity is key.

Here is a thought, is there a difference between what the USA classes as Liberal and what Europe classes as Liberal. Could it be acase of what the US classes as Liberal Europe classes as more centrist?
Pretty much.

Our "socialist", "liberal" President is actually much closer to a 1960's/1970's Republican in terms of the right/left scale than he is to a true liberal.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:25 AM   #383
iguana_tonante
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Im N Ur Childhoodz wrote: View Post
That's a cutesy gotcha answer that's meant to look smart
It's not even that, it's simply plain wrong. It's like saying "this cat is not black, it is male".

The UK is a democracy but not a republic. China is a republic, but not a democracy. Vatican City is neither (it's the only current absolute monarchy that comes to mind ). The US is both (with being a federation on top of that).

Sorry for the rant, but it's a pet peeve of mine.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:31 AM   #384
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Yeah, it bothers me too. It comes from a misrepresentation of the fact that the drafters of the Constitution didn't want a government like Athens (not that this was ever realistic anyway) and the fact that the Democratic-Republican Party was often referred to as the Republican Party. Because of this, an unnecessary distinction between Democracy and Republic was born in people's heads that has no understanding of what the terms mean or even meant to the people who founded this country.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:37 AM   #385
IndyJones
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
snip
Hey, Carc! Welcome back to the thread. Have you had a chance you ask your wife about that mysterious anti-healthcare provider regulation in the Affordable Care Act?
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Old October 7 2013, 12:50 AM   #386
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

IndyJones wrote: View Post
That's the real politics of it as well. The Republicans used to talk about a "Repeal and Replace of ObamaCare" eventually they just gave up on the replace part. It's lazy.
It's what their base thrives on. Bumper sticker slogans first. Details later - if at all. It's the immediate emotional gratification and stoking of the righteous anger that comes first and foremost. Whipping up the Tea Party and other conservatives into a cheerleader chant mentality so they can keep them energized and the campaign contributions rolling in.

Details. Pffft. Screw details. They just get in the way of some good, clean, old-fashioned 'Muricaning.
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Old October 7 2013, 12:58 AM   #387
marksound
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

I seriously hope you people are right about this stuff and I'm wrong, because otherwise it's gonna be a severe cluster. Severely.
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Old October 7 2013, 01:05 AM   #388
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

Captain Ice wrote: View Post
Praetor_Shinzon wrote: View Post
well, it won't be $95 every year. from what i understand the penalty goes up every year or so.
By 2016, the penalty is $2000.
Er...no.
PolitiFact wrote:
The fee increases every year. In 2016 it is 2.5 percent of income or $695 per person, whichever is higher.
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Old October 7 2013, 01:15 AM   #389
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
Our "socialist", "liberal" President is actually much closer to a 1960's/1970's Republican in terms of the right/left scale than he is to a true liberal.
Richard Nixon would be called a liberal by a lot of today's Republicans. Founding the EPA? Enacting price controls? Opening up diplomatic channels to forge much better and more peaceful relations with Communist China?

It's like I and others have said repeatedly over the past few years or so: Men like Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Bush 41 would probably have a Herculean task trying to secure the Republican presidential nomination in this day and age. Too many of the things they said and did during their respective heydays would be anathema if not downright heretical and unforgivable to the current hard Right and the Teabaggers.

They give Reagan lip service every five minutes, but would a man like the Gipper have been the 2012 standard bearer for President? Unlikely. After all, Reagan engaged Mikhail Gorbachev and sought deep cuts in nuclear arsenals with his Soviet partner. That's commie-lib-pantywaist-weakling stuff to a lot of these people and akin to selling out the nation's national security.
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Old October 7 2013, 02:03 AM   #390
IndyJones
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Re: Ok Trekkers, Don't Forget To Sign Up For Mandatory Obamacare Oct 1

chardman wrote: View Post
Captain Ice wrote: View Post
Praetor_Shinzon wrote: View Post
well, it won't be $95 every year. from what i understand the penalty goes up every year or so.
By 2016, the penalty is $2000.
Er...no.
Er...yes.

The maximum penalty *for a family* in 2016 is $2085 or 2.5% of family income, whichever is greater.
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