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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old October 5 2013, 10:34 PM   #91
Masiral
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
You think I would love it if only I'd watch it?
That is not what I meant (or said) at all. You mentioned that you loathed nuTrek, so I wondering why you would know details and be able to recognize them if they showed up in other novels?
Why would you assume I wouldn't recognize it even if I loathed it? It's like saying that because I loathe nuDune, I wouldn't be able to recognize elements of it if it showed up in other novels (yes, I've read every one of those abominable books).
If you find them an abomination, why do you read them? Why watch something that you hate? I really don't understand.
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Old October 5 2013, 10:45 PM   #92
Timewalker
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Masiral wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
That is not what I meant (or said) at all. You mentioned that you loathed nuTrek, so I wondering why you would know details and be able to recognize them if they showed up in other novels?
Why would you assume I wouldn't recognize it even if I loathed it? It's like saying that because I loathe nuDune, I wouldn't be able to recognize elements of it if it showed up in other novels (yes, I've read every one of those abominable books).
If you find them an abomination, why do you read them? Why watch something that you hate? I really don't understand.
In the case of the nuDune books, I wanted to find out if they would get any better. I wanted to see if Kevin J. Anderson/Brian Herbert could demonstrate that they actually understood what Frank Herbert's books were actually saying. They didn't. Also, if I'm going to criticize something, it makes more sense if I've actually read or seen what I'm criticizing, right?

So yeah, when I get the chance to see STID for free, I'll watch it. If I see something in it I like, I will be honest enough to come back here and say so. But I'm not optimistic that will be the case.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:22 PM   #93
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

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Ovation wrote: View Post
So your list of "true Trek" must be incredibly short, then. At that point, one might ask, why bother with Trek at all (particularly since the overwhelming majority of Trek, in its various iterations, seems to leave you in anguish rather than amusement)?
TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, plus the TOS movies 1-4, and 6. Add in the assorted novels, short stories, and fanfic based on these. I don't accept Star Trek V as "real" due to the nonsense of Sybok being the offspring of Sarek and a Vulcan "princess." I've already stated my reasons for not accepting Enterprise. I have a love/hate of First Contact - love, because the music is great, and I really like the character of Lily. Hate, because they butchered the character of Zefram Cochrane. I can't stand the rest of the TNG movies (yes, I've seen all of them).

So that actually gives me a lot of Trek to enjoy, and I am free to ignore the rest.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Heck, much of TOS was "out of step" with other parts of TOS, since they were making it up as they went. Are they 200 years in the future or 700? Are they Vulcanians or Vulcans? Do they answer to UESPA, Space Central, or Star Fleet? Is Benecia pronounced "Be-nee-see-ya" or "Ben-uh-see-ya?" And the earliest movies were "out of step" with TOS as well -- the Klingons looked different, no recognizable technology or uniforms remained, Khan's people were no longer multiethnic, etc.

Fictional series reinvent their details as they go. It's just part of the process of refinement. You can find many contradictions within any single Trek series, so to treat the contradictions between different series as dealbreakers is a double standard.
Your sarcasm is noted. I'm still not in agreement with you on the issues that led to my preference not to read your posts, but to say I have a double standard just because of inconsistencies within TOS itself is nonsense. I don't have to agree with you, and you will never convince me to like the nuTrek crap. Only Abrams et. al could convince me to like it if they would actually make a good movie. So far they haven't (in my opinion, of course).
Seems like a excessive amount of thought / work to put into it.

I don't think anyone is trying to convince to like the new movies.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:31 PM   #94
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Nothing I said was the least bit sarcastic. It was a simple assertion of fact. And I'm not saying you have to like any given incarnation of the franchise -- just that continuity differences are not, in and of themselves, a reason to reject it. A story can have continuity errors yet still be well-liked. The Wrath of Khan has enormous continuity problems vis-a-vis "Space Seed" and the rest of TOS, but fans overlook those because they like it. On the other hand, an awful episode like "And the Children Shall Lead" or "Shades of Gray" doesn't have any major continuity problems and is generally accepted as part of the overall Trek universe, but is still justifiably disliked. So the question of whether one likes something and the question of whether it's part of the overall continuity are separate issues. That's all I'm saying.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:34 PM   #95
Timewalker
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
So your list of "true Trek" must be incredibly short, then. At that point, one might ask, why bother with Trek at all (particularly since the overwhelming majority of Trek, in its various iterations, seems to leave you in anguish rather than amusement)?
TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, plus the TOS movies 1-4, and 6. Add in the assorted novels, short stories, and fanfic based on these. I don't accept Star Trek V as "real" due to the nonsense of Sybok being the offspring of Sarek and a Vulcan "princess." I've already stated my reasons for not accepting Enterprise. I have a love/hate of First Contact - love, because the music is great, and I really like the character of Lily. Hate, because they butchered the character of Zefram Cochrane. I can't stand the rest of the TNG movies (yes, I've seen all of them).

So that actually gives me a lot of Trek to enjoy, and I am free to ignore the rest.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Heck, much of TOS was "out of step" with other parts of TOS, since they were making it up as they went. Are they 200 years in the future or 700? Are they Vulcanians or Vulcans? Do they answer to UESPA, Space Central, or Star Fleet? Is Benecia pronounced "Be-nee-see-ya" or "Ben-uh-see-ya?" And the earliest movies were "out of step" with TOS as well -- the Klingons looked different, no recognizable technology or uniforms remained, Khan's people were no longer multiethnic, etc.

Fictional series reinvent their details as they go. It's just part of the process of refinement. You can find many contradictions within any single Trek series, so to treat the contradictions between different series as dealbreakers is a double standard.
Your sarcasm is noted. I'm still not in agreement with you on the issues that led to my preference not to read your posts, but to say I have a double standard just because of inconsistencies within TOS itself is nonsense. I don't have to agree with you, and you will never convince me to like the nuTrek crap. Only Abrams et. al could convince me to like it if they would actually make a good movie. So far they haven't (in my opinion, of course).
Seems like a excessive amount of thought / work to put into it.

I don't think anyone is trying to convince to like the new movies.
Luckily, I have the right to choose how much thought/work to put into liking/not liking something, or reading/viewing something in order to know what I'm talking about when I talk about it.

As for people trying to convince me... of course they are. Why else are they defending this stuff?
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Old October 5 2013, 11:40 PM   #96
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, plus the TOS movies 1-4, and 6. Add in the assorted novels, short stories, and fanfic based on these. I don't accept Star Trek V as "real" due to the nonsense of Sybok being the offspring of Sarek and a Vulcan "princess." I've already stated my reasons for not accepting Enterprise. I have a love/hate of First Contact - love, because the music is great, and I really like the character of Lily. Hate, because they butchered the character of Zefram Cochrane. I can't stand the rest of the TNG movies (yes, I've seen all of them).

So that actually gives me a lot of Trek to enjoy, and I am free to ignore the rest.


Your sarcasm is noted. I'm still not in agreement with you on the issues that led to my preference not to read your posts, but to say I have a double standard just because of inconsistencies within TOS itself is nonsense. I don't have to agree with you, and you will never convince me to like the nuTrek crap. Only Abrams et. al could convince me to like it if they would actually make a good movie. So far they haven't (in my opinion, of course).
Seems like a excessive amount of thought / work to put into it.

I don't think anyone is trying to convince to like the new movies.
Luckily, I have the right to choose how much thought/work to put into liking/not liking something, or reading/viewing something in order to know what I'm talking about when I talk about it.

As for people trying to convince me... of course they are. Why else are they defending this stuff?
Did I say you didn't? No, I didn't. I was saying from my POV, that, if you really do that, then I think it's excessive.

No one is trying to convince you of anything. They're talking about a movie they happen to like and addressing the point of the thread: whether or not Nu-Trek references are a bad thing in the novels.

Posting on a messageboard is sort of a two way conversation.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:47 PM   #97
SeerSGB
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nothing I said was the least bit sarcastic. It was a simple assertion of fact. And I'm not saying you have to like any given incarnation of the franchise -- just that continuity differences are not, in and of themselves, a reason to reject it. A story can have continuity errors yet still be well-liked. The Wrath of Khan has enormous continuity problems vis-a-vis "Space Seed" and the rest of TOS, but fans overlook those because they like it. On the other hand, an awful episode like "And the Children Shall Lead" or "Shades of Gray" doesn't have any major continuity problems and is generally accepted as part of the overall Trek universe, but is still justifiably disliked. So the question of whether one likes something and the question of whether it's part of the overall continuity are separate issues. That's all I'm saying.
At the end of the day, well written is well written. A story that is solid and entertaining can withstand an in-joke or quickie reference here or there.

I don't care what "universe" a book is set in, so long as I have fun reading it and it keeps my interest. Canon and continuity issues are of zero problem with me.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:52 PM   #98
Santa Kang
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

I 100% approve of "NuTrek" references in Prime Trek novels.
Robau and the Kelvin in TOS.
Blown up Romulus and MIA Spock in TNG/DS9/VOY.
Kirk's parents being Winona and George.
Uhura being a skilled linguist.

I also approve of references from STV, Voyager, Nemesis and Insurrection and even the Alternative Factor*. (All of which I have varying degrees of dislike for.) Could be a silk purse in that collection of sow's ears.


*Any of you authors ever tried to tackle that one?
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Old October 6 2013, 12:12 AM   #99
Christopher
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Kirk's parents being Winona and George.
Uhura being a skilled linguist.
Both of which originated in the novels and were adopted by the movies.


I also approve of references from STV, Voyager, Nemesis and Insurrection and even the Alternative Factor*....

*Any of you authors ever tried to tackle that one?
There's one Strange New Worlds story that brings back Lazarus -- in fact, the very last story in the very last volume, "Reborn" by Jeremy Yoder. And there must've been some reference to the episode in the Crucible trilogy, since it referenced every episode. Beyond that, though, I don't think it's been touched, which is fine with me. As I've said before, the episode contradicts canon, depicting dilithium and antimatter differently than every other episode does, as well as being inconsistent and incoherent within itself. So I treat the whole thing as apocryphal. I did, however, incorporate elements of the engineering set seen in the episode into my description of the engineering section in Forgotten History, though just in passing.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:22 AM   #100
Santa Kang
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Christopher wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Kirk's parents being Winona and George.
Uhura being a skilled linguist.
Both of which originated in the novels and were adopted by the movies.
But ST09 canonized them. (cue angelic choir)
Which means they are retroactively part of the contamination
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Old October 6 2013, 12:31 AM   #101
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post

As for people trying to convince me... of course they are. Why else are they defending this stuff?
No we aren't. But we don't want someone coming to the boards and thinking that someone like you represents the average Star Trek fan.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:39 AM   #102
SeerSGB
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Kirk's parents being Winona and George.
Uhura being a skilled linguist.
Both of which originated in the novels and were adopted by the movies.
But ST09 canonized them. (cue angelic choir)
Which means they are retroactively part of the contamination
I keep going back to this: The character backstories from the new movies isn't created from vapor, it's always been there in the novels. This is just the first time writers have given enough of a damn to use it, rather than snub it.
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Old October 6 2013, 01:03 AM   #103
Santa Kang
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

Both of which originated in the novels and were adopted by the movies.
But ST09 canonized them. (cue angelic choir)
Which means they are retroactively part of the contamination
I keep going back to this: The character backstories from the new movies isn't created from vapor, it's always been there in the novels. This is just the first time writers have given enough of a damn to use it, rather than snub it.
I guess it's ironic that the one of the filmmakers is a fan of the novels and used elements from them, yet there are people who hate the idea of elements from the film making their way into the novels
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Old October 6 2013, 01:08 AM   #104
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

Timewalker wrote: View Post
TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, plus the TOS movies 1-4, and 6. Add in the assorted novels, short stories, and fanfic based on these. I don't accept Star Trek V as "real" due to the nonsense of Sybok being the offspring of Sarek and a Vulcan "princess." I've already stated my reasons for not accepting Enterprise. I have a love/hate of First Contact - love, because the music is great, and I really like the character of Lily. Hate, because they butchered the character of Zefram Cochrane. I can't stand the rest of the TNG movies (yes, I've seen all of them).
So how can you stand reading the books with all of the constant references to stuff you don't like? Pretty much every TNG book since Nemesis came out has followed up on it. Then there's Vanguard, which has a major plot line in the last few books that's a prequel to The Final Frontier.
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Old October 6 2013, 01:21 AM   #105
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Re: NuTrek references in the novels

On other hand, a certain Trek editor once warned me sternly not to even think of pitching a sequel to "Spock's Brain" . . . .

(She knew me too well.)
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