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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 5 2013, 09:24 PM   #376
grendelsbayne
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sindatur wrote: View Post
It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.
He may have been working towards something, but who says the Vengeance was built specifically with this plan in mind?

Of course Khan going on the run wasn't part of his plan, he lost control of him, no one plans to have their own head popped like a zit. His plan was to start a war with the Klingons, and to be prepared for it, which included having the Behemoth Vengeance available and have the right people in the right places, including Khan and/or the other Augments as well as "His" Starfleet personnel that he knew would be onboard and not question what was going on if things looked suspicious when he made the move to start the war.
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place? A planet full of people who hate humans, and potentially hate augmented humans even more (considering the aftereffects of the ENT klingon augment virus are still being felt in this time period). And just incidentally, the one planet which provides Marcus with the perfect opportunity to start the war he's been itching for. If Khan is free, I'd think he wouldn't do anything to further Marcus' plans, out of spite if nothing else.

And if that whole thing wasn't planned, how did Marcus arrange for the Enterprise to be sabotaged on the fly when Kirk and Spock went straight back to the ship and took off for Klingon space?

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grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Marcus' scheme didn't even exist yet, at the end of ST09, did it? Section 31 hadn't even recovered the Botany Bay yet.
There is absolutely nothing to support this idea in either movie, while the second movie, short of having a character make a declarative, affirmative statement to confirm it, pretty much hinges on the overwhelming likelihood of Marcus having done just that--recovered the Botany Bay before the end of ST09.
Khan's description of his awakening outright said that Section 31 began aggresively searching space 'as a result of the destruction of Vulcan', leading to the discovery of the Botany bay.
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Old October 5 2013, 09:58 PM   #377
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.
He may have been working towards something, but who says the Vengeance was built specifically with this plan in mind?
It's been hypothesized, at least, that a ship or ship class of the same basic configuration had already been in the works by the time of the events shown in Star Trek 2009, which was then repurposed or had a side project split off by Marcus/Section 31 to become the Vengeance.


grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Marcus' scheme didn't even exist yet, at the end of ST09, did it? Section 31 hadn't even recovered the Botany Bay yet.
There is absolutely nothing to support this idea in either movie, while the second movie, short of having a character make a declarative, affirmative statement to confirm it, pretty much hinges on the overwhelming likelihood of Marcus having done just that--recovered the Botany Bay before the end of ST09.
Khan's description of his awakening outright said that Section 31 began aggresively searching space 'as a result of the destruction of Vulcan', leading to the discovery of the Botany bay.
Bear in mind, though, that several months must have passed between the destruction of Vulcan/defeat of Nero and the events at the conclusion of the 2009 film, in order to allow for partial recovery of Pike and major repairs to the Enterprise. It's not inconceivable that Marcus' Sec-31 operatives would have been able to locate Botany Bay and Khan during that interval.
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Old October 5 2013, 10:38 PM   #378
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?
Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
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Old October 5 2013, 10:46 PM   #379
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?
Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.
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Old October 5 2013, 10:55 PM   #380
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?
Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.
How do you know they had live warheads? When did any of them explode? When could any of them be scanned before our heroes figured out how to open them?

No, the whole point was that they were not really torpedoes at all. They just appeared to be. The only time any of them blew up was after the bodies were removed and one was turned into a real torpedo.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:03 PM   #381
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.
How do you know they had live warheads? When did any of them explode? When could any of them be scanned before our heroes figured out how to open them?

No, the whole point was that they were not really torpedoes at all. They just appeared to be. The only time any of them blew up was after the bodies were removed and one was turned into a real torpedo.
I remember it being specifically mentioned in the film. Not sure exactly where, and transcripts don't seem to be available yet. Anyway, firing the torpedoes would pretty much be the death of khan's crew, either way, if not Khan himself.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:07 PM   #382
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

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Old October 5 2013, 11:27 PM   #383
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.
How do you know they had live warheads? When did any of them explode? When could any of them be scanned before our heroes figured out how to open them?

No, the whole point was that they were not really torpedoes at all. They just appeared to be. The only time any of them blew up was after the bodies were removed and one was turned into a real torpedo.
I'm afraid that's incorrect. Marcus' plan of having Kirk fire the torpedoes at the Klingon world makes no sense if the torpedoes aren't really torpedoes. And we can see from Marcus' dialogue that he knew Khan's people were in them. It is also apparent that he didn't intend for Kirk to open one of them up. If the Enterprise tried to fire them and they just didn't fire, what then? How is Enterprise sitting in the NZ going "wha happen" intended to start a war? The torpedoes can be "turned into real torpedoes" simply by arming them, because they are real torpedoes.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:46 PM   #384
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If they were real, but unarmed, so be it. I don't remember anything in the film to contradict that. That's really consistent with what I said.

But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk. I'm going to need someone to cite me chapter and verse from the film to back that up, and interpreting someone's facial reaction just isn't going to be enough to convince me of that.

Khan tricked Marcus. Marcus thought he was giving Kirk fully armed, ready to fire torpedoes, but he wasn't. Marcus intended Kirk to fire them, and he thought they would work and start his war. He didn't count on Kirk disobeying orders, and he hadn't counted on Khan being up to his own tricks, either.
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Old October 5 2013, 11:53 PM   #385
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sindatur wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If the plan was detailed ahead of time, how could they know for sure it would be Kirk going after Khan and not someone else, considering that was a clear result of Pike's death - an unpredictable event? How could they even be sure that Kirk would actually survive the attack on the briefing room?
It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.
It would be interesting to see some quotes of this advocacy. I don't believe Pike supported Kirk becoming captain in either film, but I only saw STiD once. It would reduce my opinion of him if he did. Not that I believe he or Marcus should have been able to achieve that end, even if they had been irresponsible enough to have tried. Similarly didn't Marcus only get Kirk back into the captain's seat?

Of course Khan going on the run wasn't part of his plan, he lost control of him, no one plans to have their own head popped like a zit. His plan was to start a war with the Klingons, and to be prepared for it, which included having the Behemoth Vengeance available and have the right people in the right places, including Khan and/or the other Augments as well as "His" Starfleet personnel that he knew would be onboard and not question what was going on if things looked suspicious when he made the move to start the war.
Since Kirk is a loose canon, it doesn't seem like a good idea for Marcus to involve him in plan that required someone to follow orders (in a questionable situation).


grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?
Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.
But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.
And I believe Khan didn't know the torpedoes were the ones containing his crew until Kirk told him how many he had (or some such). So not part of Khan's plan (he thought his crew were already dead anyway didn't he, hence his bad mood?) and it didn't seem to make sense from Marcus' POV either.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:04 AM   #386
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
And I believe Khan didn't know the torpedoes were the ones containing his crew until Kirk told him how many he had (or some such). So not part of Khan's plan (he thought his crew were already dead anyway didn't he, hence his bad mood?) and it didn't seem to make sense from Marcus' POV either.
Of course Khan wasn't certain what Marcus had given Kirk. Khan wasn't there when the Enterprise was armed.

All Khan could do was light the fuse and hope that Marcus would unwittingly play along as Khan hoped. But when Khan heard how many torpedoes Kirk had, he knew what he hoped would happen had in fact occurred: he had managed to get his people smuggled out of Section 31.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:17 AM   #387
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

UFO wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
If the plan was detailed ahead of time, how could they know for sure it would be Kirk going after Khan and not someone else, considering that was a clear result of Pike's death - an unpredictable event? How could they even be sure that Kirk would actually survive the attack on the briefing room?
It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.
It would be interesting to see some quotes of this advocacy. I don't believe Pike supported Kirk becoming captain in either film, but I only saw STiD once. It would reduce my opinion of him if he did. Not that I believe he or Marcus should have been able to achieve that end, even if they had been irresponsible enough to have tried. Similarly didn't Marcus only get Kirk back into the captain's seat?
Pike said he gave Kirk the Enterprise and Marcus said Pike defended Kirk. So yeah, Pike was the guy that got Kirk the command.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:29 AM   #388
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk.
Yeah, he did. We know that because he speaks of them being in there without Kirk or anyone else having told him that.

Closed Caption wrote:
If they were real, but unarmed, so be it. I don't remember anything in the film to contradict that. That's really consistent with what I said.
I think I may have given the wrong impression when I used the term 'armed'. They were always 'armed' meaning ready to function as torpedoes. They weren't just things that looked like torpedoes.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:38 AM   #389
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't think the torpedoes were armed, but I also don't think they were untraceable. Once the Enterprise launched the torpedoes, the Klingons would've spotted them and shot them down then went after the Enterprise. Which Marcus would claim had gone rogue.

Plus, I think Marcus knew exactly where Khan went. Why else would he have allowed Enterprise crewmembers around the wreckage?

Once Pike was dead, he was counting on Kirk going off half-cocked after Khan with revenge on his mind.
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Old October 6 2013, 12:41 AM   #390
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
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But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk.
Yeah, he did. We know that because he speaks of them being in there without Kirk or anyone else having told him that.
Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them. The issue is whether Marcus intentionally gave Kirk possession of Khan's people. If Marcus had just wanted the superhumans dead, he could have just killed them, you know. Zap, they're dead.
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