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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 5 2013, 05:45 PM   #61
sonak
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Re: The Son'a

Starfury wrote: View Post
Why would the Federation want to get involved in what was essentially a civil war, while helping the side THAT REFUSED TO HELP OUT THE FEDERATION in any way?!?!?
But... no one actually asked them to help. No one. Dougherty and the Sona just decided to relocate them... secretly. Once it came out the Baku were pissed. Who could blame them?

I mean... they did welcome some of the sona at the end of the movie, did they not? All it took was an hones mediator (Picard).

the Baku knew exactly why they were being moved.(the conversation between Picard and Anij at night in the village makes that clear) Their answer was obviously "no," the writer just didn't want them to have to say it explicitly.
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Old October 5 2013, 06:10 PM   #62
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

sonak wrote: View Post
Starfury wrote: View Post
Why would the Federation want to get involved in what was essentially a civil war, while helping the side THAT REFUSED TO HELP OUT THE FEDERATION in any way?!?!?
But... no one actually asked them to help. No one. Dougherty and the Sona just decided to relocate them... secretly. Once it came out the Baku were pissed. Who could blame them?

I mean... they did welcome some of the sona at the end of the movie, did they not? All it took was an hones mediator (Picard).

the Baku knew exactly why they were being moved.(the conversation between Picard and Anij at night in the village makes that clear) Their answer was obviously "no," the writer just didn't want them to have to say it explicitly.
So your problem is that they didn't sit down and negotiate with people who had pretty much made up their mind to kidnap them and pretty much steal their planet?

Thats called not being a moron.
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Old October 5 2013, 08:06 PM   #63
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Re: The Son'a

If that's the case, seems a bit petty to use that as your reason for not allowing millions to suffer less.
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Old October 5 2013, 08:13 PM   #64
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

DonIago wrote: View Post
If that's the case, seems a bit petty to use that as your reason for not allowing millions to suffer less.
So you want them to trust people who have no problem kidnapping them to get what they want and may or may not actually be operating with their government's sanction.

Not to mention that the federation probably already has the technology to save these millions (which by the way is probably way smaller than the federation's total population what with Earth having a population in the billions alone so it seems not everyone gets the fancy medical tech).
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Old October 5 2013, 09:01 PM   #65
publiusr
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Re: The Son'a

I didn't like the Unabomber manifesto type Baku myself. The Son'a and their subjugated assistants were supposed to be Americans with a love of cosmetics--but you could also make them into private property type tax protestors, so you can go either way politically.

One way or another, I bet James Cameron watched it, and was a fan of Bakshi's Wizards...

Avatar, anyone?
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Old October 5 2013, 11:21 PM   #66
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
If that's the case, seems a bit petty to use that as your reason for not allowing millions to suffer less.
So you want them to trust people who have no problem kidnapping them to get what they want and may or may not actually be operating with their government's sanction.

Not to mention that the federation probably already has the technology to save these millions (which by the way is probably way smaller than the federation's total population what with Earth having a population in the billions alone so it seems not everyone gets the fancy medical tech).
If the Federation already had the tech to save the people in question why would they be pursuing this to begin with?

And I think that that the Baku should be enlightened enough to look past the apparently poor execution of Dougherty and Ru'afo's plan and look at what at least Dougherty's intentions were.

Or is this analogous to the idea that any medical gains made through questionable means should be summarily discarded?
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Old October 6 2013, 12:17 AM   #67
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Not to mention that the federation probably already has the technology to save these millions
The term use in the movies was "billions." So Hartzilla2007 the particles will help multiple billions (let say just two billion) and there are 150 members in the Federation. That 13 million plus people average per member species who would be helped by the new treatment.

If the Federation had other treatments, they would have already have been use to help the affected people.

But hey, 13 million here, 13 million there, what's that next to 600 people wanting to hoard the particles solely for their own exclusive use?

... and pretty much steal their planet?
Whose planet? Oh that right, the Federation's planet.

Starfury wrote: View Post
But... no one actually asked them to help. No one.
Nor did at any point did the Baku offer to help anyone. As mentioned before, they would have figured out fairly quickly that there was something special about the planet, they were capable of warp travel, and they told no one.

No one.

Dougherty and the Sona just decided to relocate them... secretly.
My impression is that the curious idea to employ the holoship was entirely the Federations. The Sona certainly didn't seem to think it was a good idea in the movie.

And no the Baku shouldn't have been covertly moved, when the Federation moved the Baku it should have been done openly.

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Old October 6 2013, 01:35 AM   #68
CommishSleer
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Re: The Son'a

Surely just being in Federation territory doesn't make every planet in it under the control of the Federation. The Federation is not a military dictatorship, is it?

And surely after 300 years the Baku and Sona have some rights to their planet which should be recognised no matter how inconvenient?

I see to remember some episodes in TOS where the Federation wanted some dilithium or herbal medicines or strategic value from some planets but accepted it when they said No. Have things changed by the 24th century?
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Old October 6 2013, 01:59 AM   #69
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Federation already had the tech to save the people in question....
The transporter has been used to de-age people and re-age people.

The federation once developed a process that could create planets from nebulas and even raise the dead.

A scientists once came up with the ability to transfer his consciousness into an android body, and then he dumped his brain into the Enterpise's main computer meaning replicating the process likely isn't impossible.

If it wasn't for the federation's laws against genetic engineering they they could allow people to live twice as long with their own science.

According to Pulaski LaForge's sight might have been restored by existing federation medical science.

They developed a replicator which could replace organs, bones, and other tissues.

Not to mention all the super science they pull out of their asses to resolve whatever problem they had to deal with that week.

So yeah I don't buy the writers belief that the federation couldn't do this on their own after a little scientific research.
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Old October 6 2013, 02:02 AM   #70
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Re: The Son'a

That would seem to be a fault you're finding with the writing of the film itself, not the in-universe scenario we're asked to accept.
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Old October 6 2013, 07:59 AM   #71
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Son'a

DonIago wrote: View Post
That would seem to be a fault you're finding with the writing of the film itself, not the in-universe scenario we're asked to accept.
No it's still hard to accept in-universe when you remeber that Genesis ressurected Spock and de-aged him into an infant as it means the Federation already had the technology to make a fountain of youth.
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Old October 6 2013, 09:04 AM   #72
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Re: The Son'a

Except that all evidence is that either Genesis was ultimately considered a failure or the research was discontinued, much like Excelsior's version of transwarp drive never made another appearance in the TOS series of films.
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Old October 7 2013, 01:38 AM   #73
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
I see to remember some episodes in TOS where the Federation wanted some dilithium or herbal medicines or strategic value from some planets but accepted it when they said No. Have things changed by the 24th century?
A change might have occurred yes. However, the planets you seem to be referring to were not within the federation, owing to possessing a indigenous to that world population. The federation might (or might not) completely surround that world and it's star system, but the world itself wasn't within the federation's territory.

The ring world (per Picard) was in fact within federation space, this is made clear in the movie's dialog.

Surely just being in Federation territory doesn't make every planet in it under the control of the Federation.
If the planet is physically within federation space, then yes. But if a planet is simply with the greater area of the federation's "boundaries," that would not necessarily place it within federation space.

The ring world (per Picard) was in federation space.

And surely after 300 years the Baku and Sona have some rights to their planet which should be recognised no matter how inconvenient?
It difficult to see how 600 people living in a single valley could then claim a entire planet. If the Sona thought themselves to have legitimate rights to the planet, the federation wouldn't have been involved.

The Federation is not a military dictatorship, is it?
The group consensus tends toward a no.

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Old October 7 2013, 11:19 AM   #74
Edit_XYZ
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Re: The Son'a

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Surely just being in Federation territory doesn't make every planet in it under the control of the Federation. The Federation is not a military dictatorship, is it?

And surely after 300 years the Baku and Sona have some rights to their planet which should be recognised no matter how inconvenient?

I see to remember some episodes in TOS where the Federation wanted some dilithium or herbal medicines or strategic value from some planets but accepted it when they said No. Have things changed by the 24th century?
The movie specifically said it was a federation planet. Apparently, it was transferred from the romulans to the klingons to the federation (and the romulans had it from before the baku's arrival).
The baku are trespassers who came to the planet and then did everything they could to remain hidden. Due to being hidden, this will never give them adverse possession, regardless of how long they stay there.

For a comparison - you have a huge palace, but don't use it much. A trespasser comes there and intentionally stays hidden while using it.
Do you think this person can rightly claim any property right to your palace?
Do you actually think the society who doesn't recognise this trespasser any rights to your palace in these conditions must be a military dictatorship or oppressive? lol. I beg to differ.
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Old October 7 2013, 11:26 AM   #75
grendelsbayne
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Re: The Son'a

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
The federation might (or might not) completely surround that world and it's star system, but the world itself wasn't within the federation's territory.

If the planet is physically within federation space, then yes. But if a planet is simply with the greater area of the federation's "boundaries," that would not necessarily place it within federation space.

The ring world (per Picard) was in fact within federation space, this is made clear in the movie's dialog.
An inhabited planet can't be 'in federation space' in the way you're suggesting unless it has chosen to be part of the Federation.

The 'borders' governed by treaties between interstellar empires/alliances exist for determining whose ships are allowed to go where (which doesn't apply to the Baku) and for confirming which uninhabited planets belong to who (which also doesn't apply). Inhabited planets clearly do not 'belong' to a government unless that government actually has control of them, which under Federation law is only possible with the democratic consent of the inhabitants. Dougherty's scheme is pretty clearly illegal, whether the inhabitants are indigenous or not. (300 years of habitation, in fact, clearly predates any claim the Federation could ever make, since the Federation itself isn't even 300 years old)

It difficult to see how 600 people living in a single valley could then claim a entire planet.
How many Federation, maquis or Klingon colonies have we seen with ridiculously small populations? Of course 1 community living on an otherwise uninhabited planet has a legitimate claim, because they live there and no one else does. That's like saying my wife and I have no legitimate claim to our house because it was built for a family of four instead of just two.

If the Sona thought themselves to have legitimate rights to the planet, the federation wouldn't have been involved.
The Sona likely wanted the Federation's blessing because they intended to build an actual space-going society, at which point the fact that the location is recognized as supposedly 'federation' space could become potentially problematic for them (despite the fact that their claim would still predate the Federation itself). Or they just wanted to hide behind someone else's coattails rather than dealing with their people themselves.

On a related note, it's been a while since I've seen this movie, but wasn't there a suggestion at some point that the fountain of youth particles wouldn't actually work anywhere other than the briar patch? Meaning Dougherty's coveted miracle treatment would be entirely useless in the federation at large...
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