RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,237
Posts: 5,348,043
Members: 24,611
Currently online: 519
Newest member: fxks323

TrekToday headlines

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 3 2013, 05:42 PM   #31
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

anh165 wrote: View Post
You could fit in any villain you like in place of Khan
Actually it isn't as easy as people seem to think as with the villains suggested as replacements are either to under powered to slaughter a platoon of klingons are to over powered for them not to just vaporize the klingons with a thought.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 06:47 PM   #32
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Khan tortured Carol Marcus's science team to obtain information; and then he killed them because he just felt like it.
But wait - he was always ready with a little narcissistic speech or a Shakespeare quote when putting a brain eating bug in your head, etc - which makes all the difference in the world, of course. He was just misunderstood - no savagery to see here, folks; move on.
That was Khan from "The Wrath of Khan" after he spent 15 years on a barren world where he was forced to watch 20 of his loyal followers and his own wife die a painful death. I'm not dismissing what he did in TWOK, only that if it wasn't for Ceti Alpha Six exploding, things would have been very different.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Your examples only managed to show Khan could restrain himself when it was to his advantage - as would be expected from the conqueror of half of Earth. How many millions died for Khan's delusions of grandeur in those wars, Jeyl?
First off, it was a quarter of Earth. Not half. And if millions died during the take over, why doesn't anyone in Space Seed mention it?

SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

Simultaneously in over 40 nations. This sounds more like a quick and precise coup to take over these nations without resorting to an all out war. If there was any killing, it would be more along the lines of facing resistance from the nation's forces, not random acts of bloodshed. And if you don't think Khan didn't do things in a non-bloodshed kind of way, look at how he took over the Enterprise. No armed conflict, no bloodshed and no killing. Just knock them all out. And if Khan and his supermen were in fact responsible for millions of deaths, why do the crew have admiration for him? Keep in mind, they're referring to history written by those who defeated Khan.

SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally.


You think anyone there would be an open admirer of Hitler, a man who really did commit acts of genocide on whole cultures of people?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
BTW - You actually attribute humanistic reasons to Khan being forced to flee in order to escape the consequences of his rule at the hands of his ex-subjects/the people he failed to enslave? Really?
Uh, slaves? I don't think slavery was ever part Khan's style.
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 07:21 PM   #33
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Jeyl

1. So - now the Khan from 'the wrath of Khan' was a different one from 'space seed' (as opposed to your previous post). Of course.
2. As per 'Enterprise: borderland', the Eugenic wars costed 30 million victims (at least - perhaps 35, 37 million) and nearly plunged Earth into a new Dark Age. I guess the Khan from Enterprise was different from the one in 'space seed', as well, yes?
3. If you want to be euphemistic, you may call Khan's 'little freedom' slaves 'subjects'.

The scene from 'Space seed' with the characters salivating after Khan - because that's what you do when discussing a tyrant, apparently - is more than a little disturbing. Who knew Kirk, Scotty and McCoy belong to a far-right party*?
BTW, the part about 'No wars until he was attacked' is McCoy letting his fascist convictions blind him. As per Enterprise: "some claim that humanity rose up against Khan and his fellow "supermen," while others believe the Augments began to fight among themselves". Nobody knows exactly how the wars got started.
Also, Khan was condemned to die for war crimes he committed, etc**.

*Khan was substantially responsible for the death of 30 million people. Not far from Hitler with his 55 million deaths.
The part about Kirk, Scotty and McCoy belonging to a far-right party is not a hyperbola, but fully proven.
**http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Eugenics_Wars
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; October 3 2013 at 07:32 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 07:41 PM   #34
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

I quite like the idea of it being Soran.

Personally, I found John Harrison, a man of mysterious origins, superior intellect, who had access to some pretty advanced technology to be a far more interesting prospect as a villain for the film, rather than Khan. It could have allowed for some far more interesting story-telling as to what Harrison's motives were (for a man from a race who've left behind all the pettiness and greed of our generation) and what his ultimate goal was.

You know, something original.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 08:58 PM   #35
Cinema Geekly
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cinema Geekly's Avatar
 
View Cinema Geekly's Twitter Profile
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Amazing that even TOS Khan has fooled so many fans. Khan was definitely a savage, he is ultimately governed by his rage. How is he defeated over and over when for all reason he should not? Because he can't control that superior temper, this is why he makes mistakes, Kirk goads him and he blindly falls for it.

Everything out of his mouth is masterfully crafted to get you to do whatever he wants. Sure that is how he would prefer it, but all the good guys eventually figure out that he is selling them a load of BS.

Every time Khan says he loves his 'family' or that he would spare your crew, or treat you well, he is simply playing you, and when you figure that out and the superior mind is fooled he losses it.
Cinema Geekly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 03:23 AM   #36
Khan444
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Yeah, Khan was so "sophisticated" when his blind rage and quest for vengeance caused him to torture, murder, maim, and destroy everything standing between himself and Kirk, or at least try to. It was really "classy" when he fell for one of the most obvious "I'm baiting you, this is a trap" scenarios in movie history and got himself and all of his people killed because he just wouldn't listen to reason. Khan was always a savage. An intelligent savage, but a savage nonetheless.
Khan444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 01:33 PM   #37
Jeyl
Commodore
 
Jeyl's Avatar
 
Location: Asheville, NC
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
Amazing that even TOS Khan has fooled so many fans.
Yeah. It's like that last exchange in the episode was written solely for the purpose to fool us.

Spock: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
Kirk: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.

Why have something interesting like that when we can just settle with a Khan who just wants to murder everyone?
Jeyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 03:20 PM   #38
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Jeyl
The writers of 'space seed' did try to make Khan look good in several scenes - like the one you quoted in your previous post - which transforms Kirk&co into far right sympathisers - and the one you just quoted.
The writers overreached - said turning of Kirk&co into far right sympathisers.

Khan was a dictator - he conquered hundreds of millions, at least; the wars to end his oppression cost tens of millions of lives; he was a war criminal. In 'space seed', all he did was try to take over the ship of the people who rescued him - by any means necessary, including killing them.
Having a slick tongue does not make one any less of a savage.
In 'the wrath of khan', enterprise, etc. this is more than confirmed.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 03:26 PM   #39
Sindatur
Rear Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Jeyl
The writers of 'space seed' did try to make Khan look good in several scenes - like the one you quoted in your previous post - which transforms Kirk&co into far right sympathisers - and the one you just quoted.
The writers overreached - said turning of Kirk&co into far right sympathisers.

Khan was a dictator - he conquered hundreds of millions - at least -; the wars to end his oppression cost tens of millions of lives. In 'space seed', all he did was try to take over the ship of the people who rescued him by any means necessary - including killing them.
Having a slick tongue does not make one any less of a savage.
In 'the wrath of khan', enterprise, etc. this is more than confirmed.
Yea, you're no less a savage because you give people a chance to bow down before you and submit to being a subject of your tyranny, then you are to murder and torture those who won't bow down and submit (Because it's quite plain the people will be subjected to one of those options)
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 04:02 PM   #40
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Guys completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Khan would never consider himself a savage. Just like Hitler wouldn't consider himself a monster.

You are discussing the outside view. But Khan was talking about himself, and that was out of character. "I am better at everything"-talk. Khan. All that talk about his savagery and 23rd century people not being able to break bone. Not Khan.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 04:51 PM   #41
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Guys completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Khan would never consider himself a savage. Just like Hitler wouldn't consider himself a monster.

You are discussing the outside view. But Khan was talking about himself, and that was out of character. "I am better at everything"-talk. Khan. All that talk about his savagery and 23rd century people not being able to break bone. Not Khan.
For what it's worth, Khan wasn't speaking about all 23rd century people not being able to break bone. He was making a sarcastic or insulting remark aimed at Spock, saying that if Spock can't even break rules, how can he be expected to break bone.

Khan in "Space Seed" was also very arrogant about being better than other people. In “Space Seed” he tells Kirk, “Captain, although your abilities intrigue me, you are quite honestly inferior. Mentally, physically. In fact, I'm surprised at how little improvement there has been in human evolution."

He talked about how he'd have eventually become the sole ruler on Earth in the 1990s and would've offered a world like Rome under Caesar.

When Marla told him he may not like living in their times, he said he'd have to mold them to his liking. I don't think he meant that would be done peacefully.

Characters like Khan were a recurring theme in all versions of Trek: incredibly gifted people who were also incredibly flawed in some tragic or criminal way.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

Last edited by Franklin; October 4 2013 at 05:14 PM.
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 05:05 PM   #42
AllStarEntprise
Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
You could fit in any villain you like in place of Khan
Actually it isn't as easy as people seem to think as with the villains suggested as replacements are either to under powered to slaughter a platoon of klingons are to over powered for them not to just vaporize the klingons with a thought.
Seeing Gary-Cumberbatch vaoprize a platoon of klingons with his telekineitc and telepathic powers would have been awesome to see though.

But I agree. Without nerfing Gary Mitchell to a level that i can be beaten, there would be no way to maintain him as a threat throughout the film.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 07:23 PM   #43
22 Stars
Commodore
 
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Why does that argument keep cropping up?

Let's nip this one, nobody in the general audience will "give a shit" about anyone from the Trek mythos beyond whether they provide solid entertainment value. The only people who will care either way are the fans. So it makes no difference whether you use Soran, Khan, Kang, Kor, Koloth, Garth of Izar, or Garry Mitchell. What matters is whether they're well written, well performed, and impress upon the audience a sense of gravitas, pathos, and importance.

Now, i'm not saying Soran was the way to go... I just don't understand the logic behind "the mass audience won't care." They won't care about any of this, one way or the other. They're not in it for that. All they care about is whether the movie is entertaining. Right?
OMG I want this on a T Shirt. Thank you for stating this so clearly. This is precisely why i think they made a mistake making Harrison = Khan.

Last edited by 22 Stars; October 4 2013 at 07:49 PM.
22 Stars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2013, 02:32 AM   #44
Cinema Geekly
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cinema Geekly's Avatar
 
View Cinema Geekly's Twitter Profile
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

22 Stars wrote: View Post
OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Why does that argument keep cropping up?

Let's nip this one, nobody in the general audience will "give a shit" about anyone from the Trek mythos beyond whether they provide solid entertainment value. The only people who will care either way are the fans. So it makes no difference whether you use Soran, Khan, Kang, Kor, Koloth, Garth of Izar, or Garry Mitchell. What matters is whether they're well written, well performed, and impress upon the audience a sense of gravitas, pathos, and importance.

Now, i'm not saying Soran was the way to go... I just don't understand the logic behind "the mass audience won't care." They won't care about any of this, one way or the other. They're not in it for that. All they care about is whether the movie is entertaining. Right?
OMG I want this on a T Shirt. Thank you for stating this so clearly. This is precisely why i think they made a mistake making Harrison = Khan.
Actually according to OpenMaw's post it wasn't a mistake. Maw may be correct that it didn't matter who they put in there to the casual audience even though of the names listed Khan is easily the most recognizable to non Trek fans and I think that is why they went that route.

Furthermore they did go with Khan and the movie made a lot of money and did well among critics and the movie going audience who all gave a majority of positive reviews.

People might have a point saying it was a mistake if the movie tanked, but that just wasn't the case.
Cinema Geekly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6 2013, 10:08 PM   #45
MrJ
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Canada
Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post

Furthermore they did go with Khan and the movie made a lot of money and did well among critics and the movie going audience who all gave a majority of positive reviews.

People might have a point saying it was a mistake if the movie tanked, but that just wasn't the case.

A movie can do well and be riddled with problems, the Star Wars prequels and the Transformers movies for example. And out of all of the positive reviews for Star Trek Into Darkness I've read none of them claim it's a perfect movie, it's just good enough. Many critics have mentioned having Khan as the villain was a mistake. Yeah, STiD made a bunch of money, but compared to how Star Trek 2009 did, STiD's 3D and IMAX tickets and it's bigger budget, studio insiders consider STiD to have underperformed at the box office. Obviously it didn't bomb, but it didn't do as well as it was expected to do. And part of that could have been Khan, as well as many other things.
MrJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.