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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 3 2013, 09:34 PM   #346
marksound
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

^^It didn't go unnoticed.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:07 PM   #347
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
But we've had that since "Pen Pals".
That's not the same thing at all.

Kirk and Spock were always super-heroes.
I feel like they were just plain heroes. Most superheroes have some great origin story as to how they got their powers or why they wear their costumes. Spock was just born the way he is like many other Vulcans, and they were just a few of many individuals in a military organization. That's not really that super.

Once an element of destiny was introduced to add some excitement, that's when they became superheroes. Suddenly now they are agents of fate with a destined purpose. Kirk is destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise, and certain elements of the crew are destined to be together. None of that was present before, that's just one of their changes to the Star Trek universe. And they're entitled to do that.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:14 AM   #348
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

It's a reboot, of course Kirk is "destined" to be Captain and Spock his friend, that's who they are. Fans would whine if they weren't.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:26 AM   #349
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Most of the movies made a big deal of Kirk wanting to be captain again instead of sitting behind a desk. It's the source of his conflict with Decker, Bones is concerned about him because he can tell Kirk isn't happy in his current position and his demotion is played as a victory. It's pretty clear that Kirk is meant to be captain of the Enterprise and nearly every movie where he wasn't already captain he somehow winds up in the chair. If that is destiny then I don't know what is. It's just not the theme of the movie as it is in the reboot, because it is about him achieving it.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:40 AM   #350
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
But we've had that since "Pen Pals".
That's not the same thing at all.

Kirk and Spock were always super-heroes.
I feel like they were just plain heroes. Most superheroes have some great origin story as to how they got their powers or why they wear their costumes. Spock was just born the way he is like many other Vulcans, and they were just a few of many individuals in a military organization. That's not really that super.

Once an element of destiny was introduced to add some excitement, that's when they became superheroes. Suddenly now they are agents of fate with a destined purpose. Kirk is destined to be the Captain of the Enterprise, and certain elements of the crew are destined to be together. None of that was present before, that's just one of their changes to the Star Trek universe. And they're entitled to do that.
The "currents in time" thing has existed in Trek lore, at least since The City on the Edge of Forever. Also, if you think about it, you'll see that the Mirror Universe couldn't produce the counterparts of people in the Prime Universe that we've seen, amidst its alternate sequence of events, and in similar positions no less, without a similar force in operation.
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Old October 4 2013, 05:24 AM   #351
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
The "currents in time" thing has existed in Trek lore, at least since The City on the Edge of Forever.
That's often repeated and just as often misunderstood. It doesn't refer to there being a fate. It would be kind of hard to when the Enterprise and the Federation disappeared. It refers to time travel and where you end up.

Also, if you think about it, you'll see that the Mirror Universe couldn't produce the counterparts of people in the Prime Universe that we've seen, amidst its alternate sequence of events, and in similar positions no less, without a similar force in operation.
In a sense that's probably true. If you allow for infinite possible universes, there is a likelihood of there being at least one universe where the crew all magically got together at once in the way they did. But as a causal result of the destruction of the Kelvin? I'm not really seeing it. It seemed like there were hands of fate pushing people in certain directions, and those hands really just seemed to be the writers' hands. Everything seemed too coincidental and too grandiose. It was really at odds with how things were consistently painted in the past.

If we were asked to believe that there could be infinite universes, similar to what is seen in "Parallels," and they actually traveled to one that was already different, then that's one thing. But Nero changed the universe from one that was presumably the same as his, and before we would see things unfold in a deterministic fashion, not in a fateful manner. That's at least how the regular universe usually worked.

I get what you're saying though because DS9 took the MU concept and added that fate concept (and a lot of other odd things). There's no way to overlook the fact that someone like Mirror Ezri appears around the same time that regular Ezri does. I think that's one reason why I hate all of the later MU episodes. They were such a contrast from the rest of the show in that they were pure fantasy and they were just really very dumb.

Anyways, a bad precedent for visiting a tired trope isn't really an excuse for a shift in the nature of the characters.
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Old October 4 2013, 05:46 AM   #352
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
The "currents in time" thing has existed in Trek lore, at least since The City on the Edge of Forever.
That's often repeated and just as often misunderstood. It doesn't refer to there being a fate. It would be kind of hard to when the Enterprise and the Federation disappeared. It refers to time travel and where you end up.
No, when Spock first spoke of currents in time, he was speaking about a theory of what time itself was like. In desperation, Kirk and Spock applied that notion to their predicament. From http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/28.htm:

SPOCK: First, I believe we have about a week before McCoy arrives, but we can't be certain.
KIRK: Arrives where? Honolulu, Boise, San Diego? Why not Outer Mongolia, for that matter?
SPOCK: There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash.
KIRK: And the same currents that swept McCoy to a certain time and place might sweep us there, too.
SPOCK: Unless that is true, Captain, we have no hope. [...]
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Old October 4 2013, 07:52 AM   #353
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Closed Caption wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Closed Caption wrote: View Post
The "currents in time" thing has existed in Trek lore, at least since The City on the Edge of Forever.
That's often repeated and just as often misunderstood. It doesn't refer to there being a fate. It would be kind of hard to when the Enterprise and the Federation disappeared. It refers to time travel and where you end up.
No, when Spock first spoke of currents in time, he was speaking about a theory of what time itself was like. In desperation, Kirk and Spock applied that notion to their predicament. From http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/28.htm:

SPOCK: First, I believe we have about a week before McCoy arrives, but we can't be certain.
KIRK: Arrives where? Honolulu, Boise, San Diego? Why not Outer Mongolia, for that matter?
SPOCK: There is a theory. There could be some logic to the belief that time is fluid, like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash.
KIRK: And the same currents that swept McCoy to a certain time and place might sweep us there, too.
SPOCK: Unless that is true, Captain, we have no hope. [...]
All of which to me, supports Ryan8bit's view. By introducing a "scientific", if unlikely explanation, fate is removed from being a factor. They are not saying: "Bones is destined to arrive here". That would be fate.
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Old October 4 2013, 10:29 AM   #354
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

There is more evidence of "fate" in the Trekverse than against it. A few examples off the top of my head...

-The Enterprise-D being destroyed by a warp core breach in a battle with a Klingon Bird-of-Prey (or three) in two timelines (Yesterday's Enterprise and Generations) three or four years apart.

-Seven of Nine replacing Kes in the Jefferies tube scanning the Krenim torpedo -looking for the same information but for different reasons- and being pulled away by Tuvok (Before and After, Year of Hell)

-Mirror Universe counterparts always interacting in the same place despite completely different circumstances (DS9)

-Kirk's crew more-or-less (no Rand or original Pike or WNMHGB crew) coming together under very different circumstances in two timelines, about 6 years apart (TOS, Star Trek)

-Kirk or Spock sacrificing themselves repairing the warp core in a battle with Khan, in two timelines 15 years apart. (Wrath of Khan, Into Darkness)



Also, all this time and I never realized Geordi was bumped up several ranks to go with his uniform change and new job!
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Old October 4 2013, 02:31 PM   #355
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sindatur wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why people find it so unrealistic that Kirk was promoted from Lt to Captain? No one even commented on me pointing out the President of the United states. He was a Community Service Guy, and got elected to State Senate, and spent almost the entire time running for Federal Senate (Bypassed most votes by voting "present") and then he left the State Senate seat before his term expired, and did the same thing with his Federal Senate Seat, spent most of that term running for President, skipping most votes by voting "Present" and left that seat before his term ended in order to be President. So, he didn't even finish his Academy training, and he was given the most powerful position in the world, with no experience/training other than running for office. Then, once in office, within a month of taking office, before he had time to do anything except unpack, he was given the Nobel Peace Prize, and has gone on to continue the Policies he railed against as a Candidate. With a real life example like that, how can anyone possibly argue that Kirk's promotion is unbelievable and unrealistic, and it is a fictional story, not real life?
Because Politicians (in any world) aren't analagous to Starship captains? A politician in essence is nothing more and nothing less than some guy who, through whatever reasons, proves capable of convincing a whole lot of people that he should be in charge. There is no 'Academy' for politicians, and no matter how many of them you can point to who all got into the game through more or less similar paths, there are always other examples who did not. Ultimately, their only legitimacy lies in the election results, and electoral candidacy is open to everyone with only a very minimal number of actual requirements.

Starship captains, on the other hand, are appointed by a single regulatory body which is presumedly bound to specific rules and regulations regarding command suitability, etc, etc. Except in societies where corruption is widespread enough to render these rules moot in the face of favoritism or bribery - which is clearly not the Federation - Captaincies are not just handed out to anyone who does something impressive without some sort of actual promotion process.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:16 PM   #356
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why people find it so unrealistic that Kirk was promoted from Lt to Captain? No one even commented on me pointing out the President of the United states. He was a Community Service Guy, and got elected to State Senate, and spent almost the entire time running for Federal Senate (Bypassed most votes by voting "present") and then he left the State Senate seat before his term expired, and did the same thing with his Federal Senate Seat, spent most of that term running for President, skipping most votes by voting "Present" and left that seat before his term ended in order to be President. So, he didn't even finish his Academy training, and he was given the most powerful position in the world, with no experience/training other than running for office. Then, once in office, within a month of taking office, before he had time to do anything except unpack, he was given the Nobel Peace Prize, and has gone on to continue the Policies he railed against as a Candidate. With a real life example like that, how can anyone possibly argue that Kirk's promotion is unbelievable and unrealistic, and it is a fictional story, not real life?
Because Politicians (in any world) aren't analagous to Starship captains? A politician in essence is nothing more and nothing less than some guy who, through whatever reasons, proves capable of convincing a whole lot of people that he should be in charge. There is no 'Academy' for politicians, and no matter how many of them you can point to who all got into the game through more or less similar paths, there are always other examples who did not. Ultimately, their only legitimacy lies in the election results, and electoral candidacy is open to everyone with only a very minimal number of actual requirements.

Starship captains, on the other hand, are appointed by a single regulatory body which is presumedly bound to specific rules and regulations regarding command suitability, etc, etc. Except in societies where corruption is widespread enough to render these rules moot in the face of favoritism or bribery - which is clearly not the Federation - Captaincies are not just handed out to anyone who does something impressive without some sort of actual promotion process.
You apparently aren't very familiar with US Politics. While it has the face of Democracy, and it's true the people vote from the Nominees, it's not true that all you need to do is decide to run for President. In order to have a chance at winning the Nomination, you need to impress someone within the Party Machine and have them advocate for you, the party machine pretty much decides who they want to run in the election against the other party, many have been told "It's not your turn, drop out" or simply didn't have a shot because the Party Machine didn't want them, they had reasons for wanting someone else. Candidate Obama impressing someone in the Democratic Party Machine who advocated for him, is no different than Captain Pike Advocating for Kirk (Remember Hillary Clinton was pretty much a sure thing to win the Nomination, but, the party Machine decided they wanted the First Black President, instead of the first Female President, and swung the nomination votes to Barack Obama instead). Also, Admiral Marcus told us in the movie that he liked the cut of Kirk's Giblets and wanted him in that seat, because he thought Kirk was the kind of loose cannon who would go along easily his plan to start a war with the Klingons. So, Kirk won against the Kobayashi Maru (an unwinnable scenario) with creative thinking, saved the Earth and impressed a well respected Captain and an Admiral who advocated for him to be put in that position.

As far as President Obama's prior Political career being analogous to the Academy, in order to be qualified to run for President, people expect you to have some Foreign Policy Experience, or a voting history they agree with or Management experience (CEO of Corp, General in the Military, Department Head of Large Gov't Segment, High ranking member of important Government Committee(s), Party Leader, State Governor, etc). So, yes, there absolutely is an analogy for President Obama not having completed his "Academy Training".
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Old October 4 2013, 03:34 PM   #357
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
There is more evidence of "fate" in the Trekverse than against it. A few examples off the top of my head...
No, not really. And two of your examples were from the new universe?

Let's take your "Yesterday's Enterprise" example. That episode is probably a good example against the new universe type of fate. We have Tasha on board and no Troi or Worf. Things that more or less logically flow from the results of the Enterprise-C going missing. That's not fate, it's determinism.

Having a ship explode because of a warp core breach or as a result of the Klingons is only a coincidence, that's not the same thing as fate (especially since most explosions are breaches, and Klingons are the most used villain). You could pretty much say the same thing about the destruction of the original Enterprise. And you could point to a few other times where the Enterprise-D exploded and it wasn't a result of the Klingons ("Cause and Effect", "Parallels", "Timescape", etc).
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Old October 4 2013, 04:04 PM   #358
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Love both nu-trek movies. Reading the laundry list of issues the OP stated back on page one, the only one that I feel holds merit is Kirk's rapid promotion. If you do something heroic you get a medal and maybe a promotion one step ahead. Your heroism doesn't all of a sudden give you the insight or experience to handle the administrative requirements of being the CO of a starship like the Enterprise. I'm talking about managing several department heads and fully understanding the assets and enablers that you control as well as the requirements and expectations that come with the job.

That being said, I expect to see CAPT Kirk in command of the Enterpise on the big screen so it obviously wasn't a deal breaker but definitely something that could have been handled better.
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Old October 4 2013, 04:43 PM   #359
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Also, all this time and I never realized Geordi was bumped up several ranks to go with his uniform change and new job!
Didn't quite happen that fast . He was still a Lt the whole of the second season. First reference to Lt. Cmdr was Season 3 ("Evolution" if Memory Alpha is correct.)

And from season 1("Lonely Among Us"):
LAFORGE: So, Worf, why the interest in this? It's just routine maintenance on the sensor assemblies.
WORF: Simple, Geordi. Our Captain wants his junior officers to learn, learn, learn.
LAFORGE: Not just the junior ones. Okay, you hold this relay offline while I adjust these sensor circuits.
there is Geordi doing routine maintenance. Also note the implication that La Forge is a senior officer, not a junior one.
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Old October 4 2013, 04:56 PM   #360
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sindatur wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why people find it so unrealistic that Kirk was promoted from Lt to Captain? No one even commented on me pointing out the President of the United states. He was a Community Service Guy, and got elected to State Senate, and spent almost the entire time running for Federal Senate (Bypassed most votes by voting "present") and then he left the State Senate seat before his term expired, and did the same thing with his Federal Senate Seat, spent most of that term running for President, skipping most votes by voting "Present" and left that seat before his term ended in order to be President. So, he didn't even finish his Academy training, and he was given the most powerful position in the world, with no experience/training other than running for office. Then, once in office, within a month of taking office, before he had time to do anything except unpack, he was given the Nobel Peace Prize, and has gone on to continue the Policies he railed against as a Candidate. With a real life example like that, how can anyone possibly argue that Kirk's promotion is unbelievable and unrealistic, and it is a fictional story, not real life?
Because Politicians (in any world) aren't analagous to Starship captains? A politician in essence is nothing more and nothing less than some guy who, through whatever reasons, proves capable of convincing a whole lot of people that he should be in charge. There is no 'Academy' for politicians, and no matter how many of them you can point to who all got into the game through more or less similar paths, there are always other examples who did not. Ultimately, their only legitimacy lies in the election results, and electoral candidacy is open to everyone with only a very minimal number of actual requirements.

Starship captains, on the other hand, are appointed by a single regulatory body which is presumedly bound to specific rules and regulations regarding command suitability, etc, etc. Except in societies where corruption is widespread enough to render these rules moot in the face of favoritism or bribery - which is clearly not the Federation - Captaincies are not just handed out to anyone who does something impressive without some sort of actual promotion process.
You apparently aren't very familiar with US Politics. While it has the face of Democracy, and it's true the people vote from the Nominees, it's not true that all you need to do is decide to run for President. In order to have a chance at winning the Nomination, you need to impress someone within the Party Machine and have them advocate for you, the party machine pretty much decides who they want to run in the election against the other party, many have been told "It's not your turn, drop out" or simply didn't have a shot because the Party Machine didn't want them, they had reasons for wanting someone else. Candidate Obama impressing someone in the Democratic Party Machine who advocated for him, is no different than Captain Pike Advocating for Kirk (Remember Hillary Clinton was pretty much a sure thing to win the Nomination, but, the party Machine decided they wanted the First Black President, instead of the first Female President, and swung the nomination votes to Barack Obama instead). Also, Admiral Marcus told us in the movie that he liked the cut of Kirk's Giblets and wanted him in that seat, because he thought Kirk was the kind of loose cannon who would go along easily his plan to start a war with the Klingons. So, Kirk won against the Kobayashi Maru (an unwinnable scenario) with creative thinking, saved the Earth and impressed a well respected Captain and an Admiral who advocated for him to be put in that position.

As far as President Obama's prior Political career being analogous to the Academy, in order to be qualified to run for President, people expect you to have some Foreign Policy Experience, or a voting history they agree with or Management experience (CEO of Corp, General in the Military, Department Head of Large Gov't Segment, High ranking member of important Government Committee(s), Party Leader, State Governor, etc). So, yes, there absolutely is an analogy for President Obama not having completed his "Academy Training".
I'm well aware it's not easy to become a succesful candidate. Particularly in the US 2 party system. But it is, in principal, possible for anyone, no matter how unusual their background is. See Governor Schwarzenegger or any number of the grass roots Tea Party congressmen.

All they had to do was convince a lot of people they were the right person for the job. There is no system of tests and performance reviews to find who is the best candidate. It's a giant game of who can win the most (important) people's confidence.

And there is still no Academy for politicians, no matter if there is some nebulous set of 'expectations' which people have of candidates - which is generally applied as loosely and inconsistently as possible, because the only thing either party actually cares about is winning. Oftentimes an election winner has as much or more to do with who has the most money as with who has the most experience. This is not a process even remotely analogous to selecting a Starship captain.
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