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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old October 2 2013, 04:57 PM   #16
anh165
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I get the impression that this is yet another thread that concludes: "I prefer TNG over TOS/Nu-trek becuz I am more familiar with it" rather than the actual merits of the movies themselves.

Visual effects, special effects, the production values and acting performances in Into Darkness IMO pisses all over First contact in the silver screen context.

Twok, TMP, TUC also pisses all over First Contact in that regard.

For me, FC as a movie lacked the pace, drama and panache to convince it is something worth spending 1-2 hours watching, story wise it fell well short of a good TNG episode, and acting, scripting and direction was very bland, episodic and uninspiring compared to other movies in the mid 90s.
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Old October 2 2013, 05:41 PM   #17
Jeyl
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

No contest. First Contact.

When it comes to a story about our main character seeking revenge against the bad guy, Picard's is the way better story. We see a Captain who once gloated, bragged and preached about how awesome and godlike humanity has become over the years be reduced to an irresponsible leader in a crises with the whole galaxy at stake. He uses his rank and authority to force his crew into a suicidal struggle against an enemy that steals your very soul. And the one person who talks him out of it? A woman from the 21st century who lives in a rusted, torn up Montana town. You remember how the crew used to say about humanity from the 21st century? Like how there was little to nothing that redeems them and that it was a wonder how humanity survived at all? Yep. One just helped save the day.

What do we get with Kirk? Revenge is bad, but trying to beat the living snot out of a person who had already surrendered out of revenge is good!

At least First Contact didn't have magic blood.
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Old October 2 2013, 07:06 PM   #18
Noname Given
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Jeyl wrote: View Post
No contest. First Contact.

When it comes to a story about our main character seeking revenge against the bad guy, Picard's is the way better story. We see a Captain who once gloated, bragged and preached about how awesome and godlike humanity has become over the years be reduced to an irresponsible leader in a crises with the whole galaxy at stake. He uses his rank and authority to force his crew into a suicidal struggle against an enemy that steals your very soul. And the one person who talks him out of it? A woman from the 21st century who lives in a rusted, torn up Montana town. You remember how the crew used to say about humanity from the 21st century? Like how there was little to nothing that redeems them and that it was a wonder how humanity survived at all? Yep. One just helped save the day.

What do we get with Kirk? Revenge is bad, but trying to beat the living snot out of a person who had already surrendered out of revenge is good!

At least First Contact didn't have magic blood.
The problem I had with Picard's actions in FC:

If they hadn't already essentially covered that aspect of Picard's reaction to encountering the Borg again in the TNG episode "I Borg" (where he breaks down and instead of destroying the enemy that violated him - he treated it medically and fed it, then gave it a name, and sent it 'home'); and the follow up story about that same Borg in "Descent".)

While FC is indeed the best (and IMO the only marginally watchable) TNG feature film (to this day I still find any scene with Data and the Borg Queen cringeworthy as even two good actors couldn't do much with that mess); in comparison with STiD, FC comes across as a big budget TNG 2 part TV episode (even down to the ridiculous A/B storylines in one episode aspect, which I hated in TNG.)

STiD blows away FC in every aspect. It really does recapture the essence of the Kirk and Spock characters, shows their friendship progressing, and you get the sense they both grew as characters.

Contrast that with FC where Picard basically turns into a raving action figure; and when Worf shows up on the Bridge after effectively loosing the Defiant (and probably a fair number of crewmen were killed) - the first thing said by Riker to Worf (after the offhand "tough little ship")is: "You do remember how to fire phasers?"
^^^
yep, stellar character interaction there.
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Old October 2 2013, 08:13 PM   #19
Khan444
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Into Darkness is easily the better movie, and I say that as a FC fan. People say that Picard's quest for revenge is better, I disagree. Picard acts WAY out of character in FC, so his revenge is NOT better. He's never been this pathologically obsessed with the Borg before. It was yet another example of them trying to turn Picard into an action hero, which misses the point of the character entirely. The Borg Queen was a mistake (though I really liked Alice Krige's performance). The Borg were much more intimidating when they were a collective with not set leader. Riker, Geordi, Crusher, and Troi were all underused, etc. STID had ONE scene that I thought was too much like WOK, but it was a very different movie. It was closer to Space Seed than WOK. The acting was better, the story was better, the action/effects were better, the villain was better, etc.
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Old October 2 2013, 09:36 PM   #20
starburst
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Jeyl wrote: View Post
What do we get with Kirk? Revenge is bad, but trying to beat the living snot out of a person who had already surrendered out of revenge is good!
But when Kirk beat his prisoner it was when he was still out for revenge, by the time he made his speech at the end of the film he had learnt a valuable lesson for command and life in general.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
At least First Contact didn't have magic blood.
That is one big point there...

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Into Darkness is easily the better movie, and I say that as a FC fan. People say that Picard's quest for revenge is better, I disagree. Picard acts WAY out of character in FC, so his revenge is NOT better. He's never been this pathologically obsessed with the Borg before. It was yet another example of them trying to turn Picard into an action hero, which misses the point of the character entirely. The Borg Queen was a mistake (though I really liked Alice Krige's performance). The Borg were much more intimidating when they were a collective with not set leader. Riker, Geordi, Crusher, and Troi were all underused, etc. STID had ONE scene that I thought was too much like WOK, but it was a very different movie. It was closer to Space Seed than WOK. The acting was better, the story was better, the action/effects were better, the villain was better, etc.
I really dont get the 'copy and paste job' statements by some viewers, unless they watched a completely different movie to me there were odd lines and one scene which were a riff on WOK.

I too am a huge FC fan and think that STITD is a better movie for the most part.
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Old October 2 2013, 10:52 PM   #21
Khan444
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Also, Kirk is still young and relatively inexperienced in STID, so its believable that he may let his emotions get the best of him from time to time, especially when his surrogate father figure is murdered right in front of him. Picard, on the other hand, is much older and highly experienced. The Picard in FC has gone through seven seasons of the TV show, including his dealings the Borg. So Picard becoming a raving revenge-obsessed lunatic is much less believable, especially when it contradicts events in the TV show.
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Old October 2 2013, 11:06 PM   #22
Makarov
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

For one thing I don't really agree with the criticism that Picard was out of character in First Contact. Sure, he's in "action movie" mode, which made him a bit angrier than usual. He certainly acted in a different manner in "I, borg" but it's also possible that it was still eating away at him. It could have been boiling up inside him and the events of First Contact are what cause him to snap. In fact it's the scenes with Picard in First Contact that are the most interesting.

That said, I think Into Darkness is the better movie. I feel like it had a deeper message, I mean what is FC trying to say? There's so much going on at once.

They're both good movies though. I love first contact's score.
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Old October 2 2013, 11:18 PM   #23
R. Star
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Both movies really are similar in that they ruin a classic villain by ramming them into an action piece that really doesn't capture Star Trek. As stand alone action movies they're both alright, but the acting is forced and the characters are different. Picard and Kirk in these movies are both cliche action heroes and not the thoughtful captains they were in TOS/TNG.
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Old October 2 2013, 11:51 PM   #24
Hartzilla2007
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

R. Star wrote: View Post
Both movies really are similar in that they ruin a classic villain by ramming them into an action piece that really doesn't capture Star Trek. As stand alone action movies they're both alright, but the acting is forced and the characters are different. Picard and Kirk in these movies are both cliche action heroes and not the thoughtful captains they were in TOS/TNG.
I'm sorry but what version of TOS where you watching where Kirk didn't have action hero moments? Because its sounds pretty different form the one I watched.
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Old October 3 2013, 01:32 AM   #25
Use of Time
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I'm not really interested in stating which one is better because they are not really comparable. ID is only a few months out of the theatre and FC is about 17 years old.

I know Picard was out of character in FC but if I'm being honest I have to say that I actually found the FC Picard interesting. At the end of BOBW I liked how they closed out the episode with that scene that let the audience know that he was damaged in a way that would resonate for a long time. If it hadn't been for "Descent" I think the FC Picard would have been pretty accurate. I would have also been ok with the Borg Queen had they not tried to over sensualize her.

Into Darkness was a lot of fun for me. It was pretty much what I expected for an action packed blockbuster. I liked it. I'm looking forward to watching it again as soon as I can snag a copy.
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Last edited by Use of Time; October 3 2013 at 12:17 PM.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:57 AM   #26
bbjeg
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

I prefer First Contact over STID but it's apples and oranges. They both have their qualities.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:49 PM   #27
anh165
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Jeyl wrote: View Post
No contest. First Contact.

When it comes to a story about our main character seeking revenge against the bad guy, Picard's is the way better story. We see a Captain who once gloated, bragged and preached about how awesome and godlike humanity has become over the years be reduced to an irresponsible leader in a crises with the whole galaxy at stake. He uses his rank and authority to force his crew into a suicidal struggle against an enemy that steals your very soul. And the one person who talks him out of it? A woman from the 21st century who lives in a rusted, torn up Montana town. You remember how the crew used to say about humanity from the 21st century? Like how there was little to nothing that redeems them and that it was a wonder how humanity survived at all? Yep. One just helped save the day.

What do we get with Kirk? Revenge is bad, but trying to beat the living snot out of a person who had already surrendered out of revenge is good!

At least First Contact didn't have magic blood.
So what you actually have said is you prefer the underlying concept and thesis of STFC over STID.

I thought we are comparing movies and their execution, however you try to dumb down the themes of STID, the movie is presented in a far superior way, far more polished and the standard of acting and scripting is very well aligned with its peers on the silver screen.

The problem with FC is they carried over the same type of actors, executed the same dialog patterns, and the same technobabble driven scripting which was barely excusable in 90's Television and totally crushed by anything else in Hollywood cinema at that time.

You seem to have put a spin on the themes on STID, welll I could say the cast were so fundamentally bland that the writing put Patrick Stewart / Picard into a desparate situation of going out of character with irrational outbursts of rage against the machines to keep within the 'action and drama' that FC promised, you see the spin goes both ways?

You, aswell as jarod and shazam spend an awful amount of time looking for reasons to dislike STID, when it would be easier to just get over the film and enjoy the back catalog.
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Old October 3 2013, 06:10 PM   #28
R. Star
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Both movies really are similar in that they ruin a classic villain by ramming them into an action piece that really doesn't capture Star Trek. As stand alone action movies they're both alright, but the acting is forced and the characters are different. Picard and Kirk in these movies are both cliche action heroes and not the thoughtful captains they were in TOS/TNG.
I'm sorry but what version of TOS where you watching where Kirk didn't have action hero moments? Because its sounds pretty different form the one I watched.
Huge difference between having action hero moments and being a cliche action hero.
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Old October 4 2013, 03:28 AM   #29
Khan444
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

No, not really. Kirk was ALWAYS a cliché action hero, as well as a womanizer.
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Old October 4 2013, 01:16 PM   #30
Jeyl
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Re: First Contact vs. Into Darkness

Khan444 wrote: View Post
No, not really. Kirk was ALWAYS a cliché action hero, as well as a womanizer.
An example on the womanizer part please.
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