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Old October 3 2013, 08:30 PM   #16
Shawnster
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It fits all right, but it can vary from city to city.

In some cities:
Chief of Police (or Police Commissioner)
Colonel
Major
Captain
Lieutenant

Sergeant
Detective
Corporal
Officer

Other cities may include or substitute ranks with Sheriff, Commander, Inspector, Deputy, and more. Other cities have different placement of ranks, placing Detective higher in their chain of command than in others.
Right, but those are just titles. There is not a distinction between police officers who hold commissions and those who don't.
But the set up (which is my point) is the same way, including having different insignia--and in some police departments, different duty uniforms as well--for those with the rank of lieutenant and up. They're all referred to as police officers regardless if they are a corporal or a colonel.
I'm sure there are difference in pay
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Old October 3 2013, 08:42 PM   #17
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But the set up (which is my point) is the same way, including having different insignia--and in some department, different duty uniforms as well--for those with the rank of lieutenant and up. They're all referred to as police officers regardless if they are a corporal or a colonel.
But the set up is not the same. Starfleet has personnel who are categorized as "officers" and others who are not. Police agencies don't, they are all "police officers" because they are all peace officers.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:15 PM   #18
C.E. Evans
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Re: Starfleeters?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But the set up (which is my point) is the same way, including having different insignia--and in some department, different duty uniforms as well--for those with the rank of lieutenant and up. They're all referred to as police officers regardless if they are a corporal or a colonel.
But the set up is not the same.
Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be literally termed as commissioned and noncommissioned, but there is indeed a distinction between those who do "grunt work" and those with administrative duties. And as with police departments, it could be easily be a case that all Starfleet personnel could be referred to commonly as officers regardless of their actual rank or duties.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:35 PM   #19
DavidGutierrez
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But the set up (which is my point) is the same way, including having different insignia--and in some department, different duty uniforms as well--for those with the rank of lieutenant and up. They're all referred to as police officers regardless if they are a corporal or a colonel.
But the set up is not the same.
Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be literally termed as commissioned and noncommissioned, but there is indeed a distinction between those who do "grunt work" and those with administrative duties. And as with police departments, it could be easily be a case that all Starfleet personnel could be referred to commonly as officers regardless of their actual rank or duties.
While I understand your logic, I don't agree with your analogy. Starfleet - while not an exact duplicate of the US Navy - is much closer to being a military force than a police force. Thus, we should seek analogies which display greater similarities.

In the spirit of the above paragraph, it seems like referring to Starfleet-folk as "explorers" would probably fit well.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:21 PM   #20
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be literally termed as commissioned and noncommissioned, but there is indeed a distinction between those who do "grunt work" and those with administrative duties. And as with police departments, it could be easily be a case that all Starfleet personnel could be referred to commonly as officers regardless of their actual rank or duties.
No, it is clear that not everyone in Starfleet is considered an "officer" the way members of a police department are. In "The Drumhead" Picard asks Crewman Tarses whether he ever considered going the Academy "to become an officer." That line would make no sense if all Starfleet personnel were "officers," since Tarses is clearly serving in Starfleet at the time.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:42 PM   #21
R. Star
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Re: Starfleeters?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be literally termed as commissioned and noncommissioned, but there is indeed a distinction between those who do "grunt work" and those with administrative duties. And as with police departments, it could be easily be a case that all Starfleet personnel could be referred to commonly as officers regardless of their actual rank or duties.
No, it is clear that not everyone in Starfleet is considered an "officer" the way members of a police department are. In "The Drumhead" Picard asks Crewman Tarses whether he ever considered going the Academy "to become an officer." That line would make no sense if all Starfleet personnel were "officers," since Tarses is clearly serving in Starfleet at the time.
No it's not. Benjamin Maxwell called O'brien his best tactical officer he ever had in the Wounded. In Rules of Engagement Worf described him as an outstanding officer. I guess since he's technically an NCO that could fly, being the last O does mean officer, but it gets even more strange when he routinely has officers(ensigns and lieutenants) working for him on DS9.

O'brien does go out of his way several times to describe himself as an enlisted man, but calling him a Starfleet officer seems to be a catch all for everyone in Starfleet regardless if they hold officer rank or enlisted.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:57 PM   #22
iguana_tonante
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Re: Starfleeters?

What's wrong with "astronauts"? Even Cochran used it!

It's even etymologically correct: ástron (star) and nautes (sailor); so a member of a star fleet.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:58 PM   #23
R. Star
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Re: Starfleeters?

Not futuristic enough. Trek always has to use different terms to remind everyone it's the future, just in case they forgot.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:59 PM   #24
iguana_tonante
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Re: Starfleeters?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Not futuristic enough. Trek always has to use different terms to remind everyone it's the future, just in case they forgot.
A cook is still a cook.
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Old October 3 2013, 11:05 PM   #25
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleeters?

R. Star wrote: View Post
No it's not. Benjamin Maxwell called O'brien his best tactical officer he ever had in the Wounded. In Rules of Engagement Worf described him as an outstanding officer. I guess since he's technically an NCO that could fly, being the last O does mean officer, but it gets even more strange when he routinely has officers(ensigns and lieutenants) working for him on DS9.
"Tactical officer" is a position rather than a rank, which in that case was held by a petty officer. O'Brien's rank was so mis-handled over the years its hard to know what to make of it. But if they are all officers, what to make of Picard's line in "The Drumhead"?

O'brien does go out of his way several times to describe himself as an enlisted man, but calling him a Starfleet officer seems to be a catch all for everyone in Starfleet regardless if they hold officer rank or enlisted.
The fact that there is an officer/enlisted division shows that it's not parallel to a police agency, as I was saying.
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Old October 3 2013, 11:07 PM   #26
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Starfleeters?

If it means anything, the people defending AR-558 were referred to as "soldiers."
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Old October 3 2013, 11:19 PM   #27
C.E. Evans
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Re: Starfleeters?

[
R. Star wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Actually, it is. It doesn't have to be literally termed as commissioned and noncommissioned, but there is indeed a distinction between those who do "grunt work" and those with administrative duties. And as with police departments, it could be easily be a case that all Starfleet personnel could be referred to commonly as officers regardless of their actual rank or duties.
No, it is clear that not everyone in Starfleet is considered an "officer" the way members of a police department are. In "The Drumhead" Picard asks Crewman Tarses whether he ever considered going the Academy "to become an officer." That line would make no sense if all Starfleet personnel were "officers," since Tarses is clearly serving in Starfleet at the time.
No it's not. Benjamin Maxwell called O'brien his best tactical officer he ever had in the Wounded. In Rules of Engagement Worf described him as an outstanding officer. I guess since he's technically an NCO that could fly, being the last O does mean officer, but it gets even more strange when he routinely has officers(ensigns and lieutenants) working for him on DS9.

O'brien does go out of his way several times to describe himself as an enlisted man, but calling him a Starfleet officer seems to be a catch all for everyone in Starfleet regardless if they hold officer rank or enlisted.
That's it in a nutshell.
J.T.B. wrote:
The fact that there is an officer/enlisted division shows that it's not parallel to a police agency, as I was saying.
Which is really besides the point. The actual point is that, like a police agency, the term "officer" has often been used to describe Starfleet personnel no matter their rank. It's far more rare to commonly hear the term "enlisted personnel."
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Last edited by C.E. Evans; October 4 2013 at 12:10 AM. Reason: typo
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Old October 4 2013, 12:20 AM   #28
Elvira
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Re: Starfleeters?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
If it means anything, the people defending AR-558 were referred to as "soldiers."
They were performing that role/function, it's the same way you would refer to a navigator as "a navigator."

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Old October 4 2013, 12:36 AM   #29
J.T.B.
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Re: Starfleeters?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Which is really besides the point. The actual point is that, like a police agency, the term "officer" has often been used to describe Starfleet personnel no matter their rank. It's far more rare to commonly hear the term "enlisted personnel."
It's not beside the point I was trying to make, which is that Starfleet is not set up the same as a police agency with regard to officer and enlisted personnel.
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Old October 4 2013, 12:50 AM   #30
Navigator_NCC2120
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Re: Starfleeters?

DavidGutierrez wrote: View Post
...folks in the air force are called airmen,...
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
What's wrong with "astronauts"? Even Cochran used it!

It's even etymologically correct: ástron (star) and nautes (sailor); so a member of a star fleet.

Since Starfleet Personnel use a stardrive on a starship to travel to starbases and star systems why not call them starmen or astromen?


Just a thought,


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