RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,720
Posts: 5,214,778
Members: 24,211
Currently online: 802
Newest member: dmhp32


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 3 2013, 09:45 AM   #76
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Caretaker counts as two eps even though it was originally aired as one and had a single production number, meaning that there are 45 eps in the span you've cited, and, as noted, the Kazon only appear in 12 of those eps (with one of those appearances being in holographic form only), so I still fail to see how their use stretches credibility. It was good to have gotten away from utilizing them when the show did, but I don't think they'd been used unrealistically over the course of the 12 out of 45 eps in which they were used in Seasons 1-3.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 10:32 AM   #77
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Voyager was mostly (jetrel, resolutions) travelling in a straight line towards home. Well not a straight line as the crow flies, but they had a definite forward momentum away from Caretaker's Array.

This isn't very difficult.

The Kazon started attacking them at the beginning of season one, and gave up in season 3.

There is an obvious proportionate relationship between time and distance.

If you drive some where in your car, it takes a certain amount of time depending on how fast you are driving.

(I could literally be talking to a three year old right now, but when you ask me to dumb down my re-explanation for a third time because your brain can't make the connection, that's what you get. Sorry.)

Voyager had been travelling in a straight line ( almost) for 2 years before they were beyond the reach of the Kazon.

No one else using regular warp technology chased Voyager for that long or that far.

2 years = 2000 light years.

2 years = 2 fucking years.

730 days!

The Kazon City Ships were not fast enough, and their empire can't have been big enough.

But still 2 years later, there they were.

In front of Voyager.

Just because we didn't see the Kazon in the episodes which they were not in, that doesn't mean that they cease to exist off camera where they were getting their shit together to kick Janeway in the nuts a couple episodes down the line.

26 + 16 + 1 = 43 episodes.

It takes the Kazon 2 years to cross space where they are welcome, or they outright control, that means that they have a massive empire or/and a lot of allies or they were bumbling around just like Janeway.

Almost every other empire Voyager chanced upon can be left for dust in hours or days, a week at the most, ie: One episode.

If it took 2 years to get beyond the reach of the Kazon, then every other civilization which they encountered that was more powerful and faster and advanced than the Kazon should have also taken at least 2 years to leave their field of influence... But that turned out not to be the case.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 10:44 AM   #78
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

You're equating Voyager not re-encountering certain alien species more than once with the ship having left said aliens' territory behind, which I don't think holds much weight.

BTW, I consider Seasons 1 and 2 to be comprised of 20 and 22 episodes respectively, which equals 44 eps, plus Basics P2, which equals 45.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:02 AM   #79
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Here's the thing. The Kazon have been pirating other species tech and splitting off into factions which requires distance from parent factions for centuries. They are never going to evolve into creators of tech because they aren't designed that way, rather they are the are the master race of appropriation. Use of found (stolen) objects is their skillset. Intineracy and tribal social structures are their culture. So they didn't just start expanding from their homeworld last week when they decided to steal big cars, most of them have never been to their homeworld and they don't give a rats about it. They are FAR FLUNG because that's what makes them Kazon.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne

Last edited by teacake; October 3 2013 at 11:14 AM.
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:03 AM   #80
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

20 + 22 = 42.

Talaxians helped get Voyager back in Basics II.

That means that their trade routes were as extensive as the Kazons.

Empires are blob shaped, not circles or squares.

(Although I imagine Borg space to be a perfect sphere.)

Voyager was definitely passing borders, but lots of other aliens travel across borders too, that any species Voyager encountered in their own home space, other members of that same species could be found as a tourist, immigrant, trader or invader in any other neighbouring empire.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:14 AM   #81
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

teacock wrote: View Post
Here's the thing. The Kazon have been pirating other species tech and splitting off into factions which requires distance from parent factions for centuries. They are never going to evolve into creators of tech because they aren't designed that way, rather they are they are the master race of appropriation. Use of found (stolen) objects is their skillset. Intineracy and tribal social structures are their culture. So they didn't just start expanding from their homeworld last week when they decided to steal big cars, most of them have never been to their homeworld and they don't give a rats about it. They are FAR FLUNG because that's what makes them Kazon.
The Kazon were Trabe slaves.

Their independence was inside Cullah's lifetime, 25 years before Caretaker acording to "Maneuvers". I'm thinking they were little better than monkeys when the Trabe found them.

As those ships break down, the Kazon arn't smart enough to build new ones, or seem to have the infrastructure to set up their own ship yards, but if they make enough "money" they might be able to buy a new fleet to replace the falling apart one that they have now.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:16 AM   #82
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I like my story better.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:20 AM   #83
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I'm wondering if they knew where their homeworld is? If the Trabe actually gave a damn enough to register where it was when they harvested the first Kazon slaves. And even if they knew where to go, why would Spacebound kazon want to go there if the free Kazon from "Kazo" still think that it's "relatively" the 8th century?
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:30 AM   #84
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

If they go there, it will be to conquer.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:40 AM   #85
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Vini vidi vici?

That wouldn't have to go through the motions of actually conquering if the free free Kazon haven't even invented radio.

It's possible that something like the Prime Directive could be in place?

A fleet of Trabe ships piloted by husky Space Kazons in orbit making SURE no one tries to fuck with their cousins ever again.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz

Last edited by Guy Gardener; October 3 2013 at 05:26 PM.
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:47 AM   #86
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Yeah, not the Prime Directive so much as a sentimental superstition about the mother world.

Though maybe the Prime Directive isn't much more than sentimental superstition about mankind's wondrous crawl out of the mud, to the stars.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 04:22 PM   #87
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

BruntRIP wrote: View Post
Not at all, "In the Pale Moonlight" was an effect not a cause . The war happened(cause) which led to "In the Pale Moonlight"(effect)
Sisko spends all of "Far Beyond the Stars" blathering on about how "The Dream must never die!" and then he goes and helps destroy the dream himself. And this is never touched upon again. His character didn't change, when it should have.

Yes there was
Behr even said he wished the episode had happened after Bashir's augmentation because his arrogance really was high then. "The Quickening" did nothing for Bashir's character.

Nog had plenty of development before the war started. And VOY could have done a war arc.
Not really, the war was the main catalyst and no Voyager could not do a war arc.

VOY was a FICTIONAL TV show, it had literally everything to work with and was only limited by the writers imaginations.
No, it had the inherent limitations of the premise, a lot which held back the show. DS9 was stationary and had the universe that TOS and TNG spend their runs building up, VOY had to leave all that behind and had nothing it could work with like DS9 did, especially since it's "Always on the Move" thing meant they couldn't build up their own universe.

VOY consistently ignored it's "Always on the move" premise so that excuse doesn't hold any water.
Not really, the "always on the move" thing is what kept them from being able to build up a better setting to do stories with. And whenever they tried to flesh out their surroundings better, all they got were complaints that they shouldn't be doing that. So it's a no-win scenario.

But even if they had stuck to the "Always on the move" premise they still had 150 people on the ship so they had plenty to work with.
That's not much to work with. Internal conflicts would fade away after 1 season or so anyways, unless these were really messed up people. NuBSG got away with it because it had an entire fleet of ships to do stories with and thousands of people so visiting other ships would be like visiting other worlds. Voy was just a tiny scout ship.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 10:41 PM   #88
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Yeah, the Borg are a DQ race, but if they meet the Borg that often they shouldn't meet unassimilated civilizations that often. Any Borg-dominated region of space should be almost exclusively Borg.

It's true, Voyager didn't have story continuity but it did have character development continuity in that they gradually developed characters in a certain trajectory through their behavior in individual episodes, particularly with Seven. But that's not any different than shows like CSI or House have.

@Anwar

Being on the move means they couldn't meet the same people over and over again and deal with the same places over and over again. But they could have established a richer culture aboard the ship, had a strong cast of secondary characters, etc. They used the main cast pretty much exclusively after season two. Any non-main cast crewmembers for the rest of the series who were important in one episode might have showed up and said hi once or twice but basically disappeared. The only exceptions are Naomi and Icheb. Even Sam Wildman basically wasn't a presence in Naomi stories.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 11:21 PM   #89
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It's true, Voyager didn't have story continuity
Actually, it's NOT TRUE that Voyager didn't have story continuity.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2013, 12:05 AM   #90
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Maybe we'll believe you finally if you write all in caps?

Being loud is obviously how you change peoples minds.

Joe Carey the most prolific recurring character who proved that Voyager cared about a running story line for all it's lower decks... 7 episodes (But Caretaker counts as two episodes! ...No one cares.).

Two of which were time travel episodes made near the end because they needed to benchmark that the story is set in season one, and then one final episode to kill him because he symbolized the rich tradition of Janeway caring about all the little people that keep her ship running.

Sam Wildman? 8 episodes. And again one of those episodes was Fury set during season one, and they couldn't possibly have her raising her daughter who was in every other episode making Wesley look like Charles Bronson.

In season three when Berman got rid of Seska and Cullah, they got rid of their total budget for recurring third tier characters, and dumped the money into the special effects budget because Voyagers producers decided that it's audience wants more explosions in space, than silly tedious character development for recurring villains and shipmates.

Any growth that happened in/to these characters and the over all plot was purely accidental, or needed to explain a new expensive set like the Delta Flier or Astrometrics.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.