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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 2 2013, 03:45 PM   #331
grendelsbayne
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
The rule is "needs of the plot" plain and simple.

Your mistake is trying to postulate "Starfleet policy" based on the limited information provided by what we see in the show. But thats just a hand full of ships and personnel. Plus its a series TV show/movies. There is no "Starfleet" or a plan in place by the show runners about promotions.
Everything that happens in any story is dictated by the needs of the plot. That doesn't automatically excuse writers from trying to make their stories seem at least somewhat consistant with each other - unless they're writing stories in which consistancy simply doesn't factor in. (Star Trek is not that kind of story)

And again - this doesn't mean they can't ever do anything new. It means, if they decide to do something that contradicts what they've done before, they need to acknowledge that and at least try to give us an explanation of some kind (preferably one that makes sense within the world of the story).

In the case of Kirk's promotion, this could've been accomplished in a whole lot of different ways ranging from altering the story, to at least inserting a few extra lines about why Starfleet chose to grant him permanent command. Taking the time to work this out didn't have to harm the story at all, and personally, I think could actually have led to a better story. But they simply didn't bother trying.
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Old October 2 2013, 04:29 PM   #332
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

In the case of Kirk's promotion, this could've been accomplished in a whole lot of different ways ranging from altering the story, to at least inserting a few extra lines about why Starfleet chose to grant him permanent command. Taking the time to work this out didn't have to harm the story at all, and personally, I think could actually have led to a better story. But they simply didn't bother trying.
But why do they need to explain it to us again?

We (the audience) know who Jim Kirk will become. We were given lines by Pike that Starfleet needed a kick in its complacency. We're given lines of dialogue from Spock Prime about everything that Kirk and Spock will achieve together.

Even more dialogue seems incredibly redundant. Some people seem to cling to this need to have everything explicitly spelled out even though it has already been implicitly explained.

Did we need lines of dialogue explaining why LaForge jumped from junior grade pilot to Chief Engineer of the Flagship of the Federation?
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Old October 2 2013, 06:46 PM   #333
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Point is: Spock has never been played 100% emotionless.
No one said he should be.

Quinto's Spock is pretty on course for what we've seen in the past from Nimoy.
Quinto plays Spock as a super passive-aggressive human being. Okay, the script is responsible for a lot of that, but I'm sure Quinto could underplay it a bit so that it's not so over the top.

And I won't even bring up "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!" (Mostly, though, because I don't want you to counter with "THE WOMEN!!!")
How about countering with: "DEFLECTORS! FULL INTENSITY!"
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Old October 3 2013, 03:46 AM   #334
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
The rule is "needs of the plot" plain and simple.

Your mistake is trying to postulate "Starfleet policy" based on the limited information provided by what we see in the show. But thats just a hand full of ships and personnel. Plus its a series TV show/movies. There is no "Starfleet" or a plan in place by the show runners about promotions.
Everything that happens in any story is dictated by the needs of the plot. That doesn't automatically excuse writers from trying to make their stories seem at least somewhat consistant with each other - unless they're writing stories in which consistancy simply doesn't factor in. (Star Trek is not that kind of story)

And again - this doesn't mean they can't ever do anything new. It means, if they decide to do something that contradicts what they've done before, they need to acknowledge that and at least try to give us an explanation of some kind (preferably one that makes sense within the world of the story).

In the case of Kirk's promotion, this could've been accomplished in a whole lot of different ways ranging from altering the story, to at least inserting a few extra lines about why Starfleet chose to grant him permanent command. Taking the time to work this out didn't have to harm the story at all, and personally, I think could actually have led to a better story. But they simply didn't bother trying.
There is no consistency in Star Trek's approach to promotion and advancement. This has been pointed out using examples from the series and films. Changes in rank, position and training are based on what the film/series needs or the plot demands. Arguing against the promotion based on precedence, contradiction or inconsistency just isn't a valid.

The entire film is about why Kirk should be in command of the Enterprise. Everything in it is leading to that outcome. Kirk is a young dashing hero who just saved the Earth and Federation from a madman with a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Heroes get rewards: the hand of the princess, the keys to the kingdom, riches, his own starship command. There's not much more that needs to be said in the film about why.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:39 AM   #335
grendelsbayne
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

In the case of Kirk's promotion, this could've been accomplished in a whole lot of different ways ranging from altering the story, to at least inserting a few extra lines about why Starfleet chose to grant him permanent command. Taking the time to work this out didn't have to harm the story at all, and personally, I think could actually have led to a better story. But they simply didn't bother trying.
But why do they need to explain it to us again?

We (the audience) know who Jim Kirk will become. We were given lines by Pike that Starfleet needed a kick in its complacency. We're given lines of dialogue from Spock Prime about everything that Kirk and Spock will achieve together.

Even more dialogue seems incredibly redundant. Some people seem to cling to this need to have everything explicitly spelled out even though it has already been implicitly explained.
Not of that dialogue does anything to explain why it (Kirk's promotion) should be considered at all possible - and that's the point that clearly seems to contradict what's been done before. It's all focused on telling us how Kirk is such a great guy. The problem is, the dialogue should've focused more on telling us how it's possible for Kirk to become captain so quickly and let the story *show* us why Kirk is such a great guy. But neither of those things happened, leaving the whole storyline basically hollow.

Did we need lines of dialogue explaining why LaForge jumped from junior grade pilot to Chief Engineer of the Flagship of the Federation?
Outside of encounter at farpoint, I remember almost nothing about early TNG, so I can't make a full direct comparison, but if that was done as suddenly and inexplicably as this, then, yes.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:33 AM   #336
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
There is no consistency in Star Trek's approach to promotion and advancement. This has been pointed out using examples from the series and films. Changes in rank, position and training are based on what the film/series needs or the plot demands. Arguing against the promotion based on precedence, contradiction or inconsistency just isn't a valid.
And these plot-holes decrease the quality of the series they appear in.
You see, star trek, as a series, belongs to the genre that clearly aspires to be as logically plausible as possible (the episodes that most break this aspiration are deservedly subjected to ridicule by fans).

Some plot-holes - like the promotion of LaForge - are not visible due to not being the spotlight; as such, they're decreasing the quality only slightly, relating to normally hidden minutiae.
Star trek XI's promotion is as visible as it gets - and blatant as a plot-hole, as well. It significantly decreases the quality of the movie.


The entire film is about why Kirk should be in command of the Enterprise. Everything in it is leading to that outcome. Kirk is a young dashing hero who just saved the Earth and Federation from a madman with a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Heroes get rewards: the hand of the princess, the keys to the kingdom, riches, his own starship command. There's not much more that needs to be said in the film about why.
Blatant plot-hole is still blatant, no matter how much rhetoric you use to try and obfuscate this fact. Or how much you try to convince yourself star trek does not aspire to be logically plausible.
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Old October 3 2013, 11:57 AM   #337
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Some plot-holes - like the promotion of LaForge - are not visible due to not being the spotlight; as such, they're decreasing the quality only slightly, relating to normally hidden minutiae.
See I disagree.
I find LaForge's sudden promotion to Chief Engineer quite jarring, quite in the spotlight. Suddenly he seemed to know so much about engineering. Yet in Season 1 when they were having all those problems in Engineering, Geordi offered no suggestions.
Suddenly in Season 2 hes become the king of technobabble.

You've had 25 years to get over it. It still annoys me. nuKirks sudden promotion annoys me. But Geordis annoys me more. Still after 25 years.

You know at least they acknowledged in STID that Kirk may have been promoted too rapidly. But in TNG Geordi knew nothing about engineering in Season 1 but was suddenly the best engineer in the fleet in Season 2.
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Old October 3 2013, 12:01 PM   #338
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post

You know at least they acknowledged in STID that Kirk may have been promoted too rapidly. But in TNG Geordi knew nothing about engineering in Season 1 but was suddenly the best engineer in the fleet in Season 2.
I do remember him making it to Engineering once in the season one episode "The Last Outpost".
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Old October 3 2013, 04:41 PM   #339
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

At what point does what's happened in past productions cease to matter? What does it take to make it not matter? Like would the cop who pulls over young Kirk in the first movie have to promote him to president of the universe? Would we still be saying, "Well, Star Trek has always had strange promotions"?

Forget about Geordi or whatever oddball background minutiae happened. None of that even really matters or is even really that comparable. The fact is that the Kirk promotion was a symptom of an underlying problem in the first movie, which was trying to make Star Trek into something that it's not. They're trying to make the Star Trek characters into comic book superheros with epic origin stories. They want Kirk to just become Captain Kirk, just like how Bruce Wayne can become Batman. But Star Trek isn't set up that way.

Everything we'd ever been shown about Star Trek in the past showed us that there was no destined uniting of the crews. Kirk worked his way up the ranks, Spock served on the Enterprise before him, and other members of the crew came along at various times. There was nothing fantastic or mystical about how they came together, they just did and it worked out. We just happened to be viewing their great adventures in the present. Their past might have been interesting, but it was not a superhero epic origin.

I feel like that's the underlying problem with the rank thing for me more so than the other issues with it. And I appreciate that they tried to address it in STID, but I understand the criticism that it really doesn't change much by addressing it. They already peed in the swimming pool, emptying the pool and then peeing in it again isn't really a fix. The fundamental problem is still there in that everything was based on that strange premise. It's probably best to ignore it and move on.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:52 PM   #340
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
At what point does what's happened in past productions cease to matter? What does it take to make it not matter? Like would the cop who pulls over young Kirk in the first movie have to promote him to president of the universe? Would we still be saying, "Well, Star Trek has always had strange promotions"?
When someone trots out the "its not Star Trek because "x" or "Star Trek doesn't work that way" card, they are deliberately comparing the two products.

How else are we suppose to respond?
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Old October 3 2013, 07:37 PM   #341
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
At what point does what's happened in past productions cease to matter? What does it take to make it not matter?
One might just as well ask at what point will self-proclaimed wardens of True Trek™ cease pronouncing new movie X or new series Y to be "not Real Star Trek™"? If that ever transpires, my guess would be that what happened in past productions will begin mattering a great deal less right about then. If one would draw comparisons, though, it helps to bear in mind that the traffic on that street runs both ways.
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Old October 3 2013, 08:10 PM   #342
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
The fact is that the Kirk promotion was a symptom of an underlying problem in the first movie, which was trying to make Star Trek into something that it's not. They're trying to make the Star Trek characters into comic book superheros with epic origin stories. They want Kirk to just become Captain Kirk, just like how Bruce Wayne can become Batman. But Star Trek isn't set up that way.

Everything we'd ever been shown about Star Trek in the past showed us that there was no destined uniting of the crews. Kirk worked his way up the ranks, Spock served on the Enterprise before him, and other members of the crew came along at various times. There was nothing fantastic or mystical about how they came together, they just did and it worked out. We just happened to be viewing their great adventures in the present. Their past might have been interesting, but it was not a superhero epic origin.
This is an excellent point and goes a long way in explaining how... inorganic(?) I found ST09. Granted, this is a new universe and things are occurring differently and yes, things did need to be forced in order to get all the crew together but all that Prime-Spock nonsense, Kirk 'destined' for this and that... it's like someone reading the works of Joseph Campbell for the very the first time and thinking no-one else knows about it.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:18 PM   #343
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
When someone trots out the "its not Star Trek because "x" or "Star Trek doesn't work that way" card, they are deliberately comparing the two products.

How else are we suppose to respond?
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
One might just as well ask at what point will self-proclaimed wardens of True Trek™ cease pronouncing new movie X or new series Y to be "not Real Star Trek™"? If that ever transpires, my guess would be that what happened in past productions will begin mattering a great deal less right about then. If one would draw comparisons, though, it helps to bear in mind that the traffic on that street runs both ways.
Sorry, I didn't read this whole thread (lots of unbearable text walls), so I didn't see that particular accusation. Mostly I just saw the last several pages and I didn't see anything like that at all.

Look, I know some people act that way at times, and it sure as shit is annoying. ST09 and STID most certainly are real Star Trek, for whatever that's even worth to say. But we all know that when people say this, all that they really mean to say is that this Star Trek is different than what has come before, or that it just doesn't live up to that person's personal standard of what good Star Trek was to them. For the former point, this Star Trek is undeniably different. It's a lot more action packed, fast paced, visceral, stylistic, cool, exaggerated, and a lot less talky. For the latter point, it's just down to opinion.

I would say that as part of that change in Star Trek, we are now subject to the ideas of a universe that has an active agent of fate and that our characters are now superheroes. Part of that means more unrealistic and fantastical elements making their way in than before, and one of those things is a person going from a cadet on probation to captain of the flagship.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:29 PM   #344
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post

I would say that as part of that change in Star Trek, we are now subject to the ideas of a universe that has an active agent of fate...
But we've had that since "Pen Pals". People fated to die by a mystical "cosmic plan". That's the whole cornerstone of the 24th century Prime Directive.

...and that our characters are now superheroes. Part of that means more unrealistic and fantastical elements making their way in than before, and one of those things is a person going from a cadet on probation to captain of the flagship.
Kirk and Spock were always super-heroes.

I mean, Kirk was literally out there fighting for truth, justice and the American way. Spock was super-strong with cool mind powers. Both had cool duds that separated them from the bad guys.
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Old October 3 2013, 09:30 PM   #345
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I still don't understand why people find it so unrealistic that Kirk was promoted from Lt to Captain? No one even commented on me pointing out the President of the United states. He was a Community Service Guy, and got elected to State Senate, and spent almost the entire time running for Federal Senate (Bypassed most votes by voting "present") and then he left the State Senate seat before his term expired, and did the same thing with his Federal Senate Seat, spent most of that term running for President, skipping most votes by voting "Present" and left that seat before his term ended in order to be President. So, he didn't even finish his Academy training, and he was given the most powerful position in the world, with no experience/training other than running for office. Then, once in office, within a month of taking office, before he had time to do anything except unpack, he was given the Nobel Peace Prize, and has gone on to continue the Policies he railed against as a Candidate. With a real life example like that, how can anyone possibly argue that Kirk's promotion is unbelievable and unrealistic, and it is a fictional story, not real life?
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