RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,909
Posts: 5,330,928
Members: 24,558
Currently online: 663
Newest member: laurah2215

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 2 2013, 07:43 PM   #31
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

with all this talk about arcs...I have to ask, besides the dominion war, what were the big arcs on DS9? on TNG? Why was voyager supposed to have these arcs when the other shows didn't?
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 07:44 PM   #32
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The argument often is that VOY lacked continuity not that it had no continuity, there is a subtle difference.

The premise indictaed a more serialised show, yet what we got was a largely episodic show i.e. a re-hash of TNG. Had VOY been set in the AQ exploring the borders of UFP space much like TOS and TNG some of the critisims would not have been made, as that premise would indicate a more episodic show.

But leaving aside that for now, audiance tatses where changing around that time to wanting more serialised shows.

The are some that that hate VOY, some that accept it for what it was and some who feel it could have been so much more, and some of those who critise VOY come from those who feel it could have bee more, they don't hate it per say they just feel it didin't live up to it's potential.
there are also people who LIKE the show, think it's pretty darn good the way it is, love the characters, etc.
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:09 PM   #33
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
DS9 did the same stuff too, for all of Sisko's talk about "Saving the dream!" in Far Beyond the Stars he then goes and destroys the dream himself in "Pale Moonlight" and his character does not change at all.
Sisko changes big time over the course of the show.

Anwar wrote: View Post
For everything that happened to O'Brien in "Hard Time" he's okay by the next episode.
You definitely have a point here, "Hard Time" is a brilliant episode but the fact that it was completely forgotten about really hurts it.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bashir finally realizes how arrogant he is in "The Quickening" and then he's back to normal in the next episode.
Bashir wasn't "back to normal" at all, there's a definite change in him for the rest of the series.
Anwar wrote: View Post
DS9 "dropped the ball" as much as Voyager did, it had SOME character moments but it flopped just as much.
DS9 had a hell of a lot more then "SOME" character moments. Nog went from a punk kid to a veteran of war(with several stops in between) over the course of the series and he wasn't even a main character. DS9 even managed in one episode to give Morn more character development then any recurring character on VOY

Anwar wrote: View Post
DS9 had a more workable premise than Voyager as well.
I'm not entirely convinced that DS9 had a more workable premise then VOY, the difference is that DS9 BUILT on the original premise whereas VOY actively fought against its own premise,

Anwar wrote: View Post
As for the "Year of Hell" thing, Kes ended up leaving the ship meaning that the entire timelines thing she experienced never would've happened. That episode more or less retconned itself out of existence when she left, explaining why no one remembers the Krenim.
That is the way time travel works in Back to the future not in Star Trek, if it did then old Harry wouldn't have been able to save Voyager in "Timeless" and Old Janeway wouldn't have been able to send Voyager home in Endgame.

When compared to DS9 there is a big lack of continuity and serialization on VOY. Most episodes of VOY add nothing to the overall tapestry of the series. On DS9 most episodes add SOMETHING to the overall tapestry of the show even if it is just Nog learning how to read.
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. It’s actually a physical allergy, as in you’re repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:25 PM   #34
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Kes' warnings about the Krenim in Before and After weren't ignored. They weren't directly referenced, but there is a small subtle callback to them in YoH.

In its execution, Voyager ended up being different than what it had originally been envisioned and marketed as being, but I've come to realize that that's okay and what we got was in fact excellent. It's not perfect, but few things are.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:28 PM   #35
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
with all this talk about arcs...I have to ask, besides the dominion war, what were the big arcs on DS9? on TNG? Why was voyager supposed to have these arcs when the other shows didn't?
TNG was just as bad as Voyager.

But TNG's job was to be better than TOS.

Voyagers job was to be better than TNG.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:34 PM   #36
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
with all this talk about arcs...I have to ask, besides the dominion war, what were the big arcs on DS9? on TNG? Why was voyager supposed to have these arcs when the other shows didn't?
TNG was just as bad as Voyager.

But TNG's job was to be better than TOS.

Voyagers job was to be better than TNG.
that doesn't answer my question at all
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:47 PM   #37
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

You really can't compare TNG, DS9, and Voyager to one another because they're entirely different. TNG is almost wholly episodic, DS9 is heavily serialized, and Voyager is a hybrid of those two formats that, as I have noted, is analogous to a 'serialized procedural drama' such as Bones.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 08:54 PM   #38
BruntFCA
Commander
 
BruntFCA's Avatar
 
Location: A Mile High
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
with all this talk about arcs...I have to ask, besides the dominion war, what were the big arcs on DS9? on TNG? Why was voyager supposed to have these arcs when the other shows didn't?
TNG's premise was just about a ship flying around space exploring, so arcs and serialization aren't to be expected. VOY on the other hand had an actual goal to obtain(getting home) and obstacles to over come(two different crews alone and cutoff from starfleet) so an amount of continuity and serialization was to be expected.

As for DS9, aside from all of the character arcs for main and recurring characters you had the Emissary arc, Bajoren political arc, Klingon arc, Ferengi arc, Cardassian arc, Changeling infiltration arc, Mirror universe arc, and a few others that I'm forgetting
__________________
"Well, I come from a long, long line of smartasses. Smartass is allergic to dumbass. It’s actually a physical allergy, as in you’re repulsed by dumbasses."
Josh Homme
BruntFCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 09:00 PM   #39
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
with all this talk about arcs...I have to ask, besides the dominion war, what were the big arcs on DS9? on TNG? Why was voyager supposed to have these arcs when the other shows didn't?
TNG was just as bad as Voyager.

But TNG's job was to be better than TOS.

Voyagers job was to be better than TNG.
that doesn't answer my question at all
Yes it does.

Just not in a way that makes you happy.

Okay, so I didn't want to write half a page about the most obvious story arcs for DS9, which wouldn't make any sense if you haven't seen DS9, and shouldn't have to be asked if you have seen DS9.

Bashir... Wide eyed optimist frontier medicine goofy for the girl with spots... Hates O'Brien... Optimism beat down by listening to Garrak's lies at their daily lunches... Whoring it about like a slut... Lyta the dabo girl/girlfriend... Best friends with O'Brien, darts, the Alamo, fighting jerry across the channel... Genetically modified superman... More powerful than god (Arrogant doctor not magic super powers.).. Replaced by a changeling for 1/4 of a season... Section 32 operative... Lonely and bitter... Makes headway with another spotty girl... "Miles I love Ezri, but I like you better." ...Lives happily ever after as grizzled BMOC after everyone with shoulders wanders off.

The end.

Compare that to Kim.

Wide eyed optimist gerbil fool... Gains weight... The end.

TNG didn't need arcs because TNG wasn't expected to have arcs because it was made by the same people who made TOS for the first couple years.

That's why TNG gets a free pass. It's old.

Voyager was made at the same time as a couple other shows like DS9, Xena, Buffy and Babylon 5 which were using arcs and soap opera paradigm where stories just continued week to week, DS9 didn't start this till season three, but because DS9 did start 2 years earlier using the TNG adventure/reset model, it seems like Voyager was taking a step back because it was interested in a stupider audience who wanted simpler stories that only took 42 minutes to tell and you could miss a month and come back without being confused.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 09:01 PM   #40
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
VOY had an actual goal to obtain(getting home) and obstacles to over come(two different crews alone and cutoff from starfleet) so an amount of continuity and serialization was to be expected.
An expectation that they did in fact deliver on, albeit in a different fashion than they had originally intended.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 09:31 PM   #41
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
The argument often is that VOY lacked continuity not that it had no continuity, there is a subtle difference.

The premise indictaed a more serialised show, yet what we got was a largely episodic show i.e. a re-hash of TNG. Had VOY been set in the AQ exploring the borders of UFP space much like TOS and TNG some of the critisims would not have been made, as that premise would indicate a more episodic show.

But leaving aside that for now, audiance tatses where changing around that time to wanting more serialised shows.

The are some that that hate VOY, some that accept it for what it was and some who feel it could have been so much more, and some of those who critise VOY come from those who feel it could have bee more, they don't hate it per say they just feel it didin't live up to it's potential.
there are also people who LIKE the show, think it's pretty darn good the way it is, love the characters, etc.
Erm, I did say they were some that accepted it for what it was. AKA liked it.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 09:42 PM   #42
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

I've seen and read through the original Voyager Series Bible, and can therefore attest that the series was intended to have been much more like DS9 (i.e. heavily serialized) than it ended up being, and was initially disappointed that things changed so drastically and dramatically from what was originally intended. Now, however, I've come to appreciate the series for what it was and the level of continuity and serialization that it does bring to the table rather than bemoaning it for it ending up as something different than what it was originally intended to be.

It would've been nice to see the series remain true to its original premise as stated in the Series Bible, but it ended up being a great series even with the changes that were made that resulted in it being more of a hybrid of TNG and DS9 than the heavily serialized DS9-esque series it was originally going to be.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2 2013, 10:23 PM   #43
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

Did I tell you about how Seska was retroactively introduced into continuity?

Berman got their season one scripts back from their writers at basically the same time but when they received State of Flux, it was like the best ever... They like marvelled!

"Wow! Gosh, isn't a pity that we didn't tell anyone else to write about Seska before now? there's like 8 episodes before State of Flux she could be skeeving around making trouble but... hey? why don't we just write her in? I mean we are in charge. We can do anything we damn well want!"

Just think about this.

If Voyagers producers were willing to mutilate several locked "original" scripts, to make later episodes make more sense once, then they could in theory do it again.

They could have tucked Lindsay Ballard into 10 episodes before Ashes to Ashes (maybe Fairhaven?) or put Jetal in 5 or 10 episodes before Latent Image (in Once Upon a time... Fuck, are we positive that Ensign Jetal wasn't just another rewrite on his program because the Doctor couldn't handle Sam Wildman dying?)?

But they didn't.

Voyager had almost no foreshadowing (Before and After) and even when they did they cocked it up (Jenny, you're fired. Pack your bags and bugger off.) even though Foreshadowing is piss easy when you're writing 8 to ten scripts at the same time before the actors even get back from break.

Here's why... A multi-episode contract costs more per episode to retain an actor, and it probably fracks with their per episode budget too if they don't get creative.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 01:53 AM   #44
DigificWriter
Rear Admiral
 
Location: West Haven, UT, USA
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

This isn't a argument/debate about how well they handled the inclusion of continuity and serialization given the series' more episodic nature. It's about debunking the perception that there was no continuity or serialization at all.

Reading through some of the behind-the-scenes info on Memory Alpha does give you the impression that they were 'winging it' at times (more often than they probably should have), but, all things considered, the level of continuity and serialization that they achieved by 'winging it' is actually quite strong.
__________________
Starbuck: We're all friendlies. So, let's just... be friendly.

"Ze director's cut is ze film you saw in ze theater."
DigificWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2013, 02:10 AM   #45
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

DigificWriter wrote: View Post

In its execution, Voyager ended up being different than what it had originally been envisioned and marketed as being, but I've come to realize that that's okay and what we got was in fact excellent. It's not perfect, but few things are.
It is full of charms. That's how I find it, a delightful series. The original vision may have been different, and may have been quashed by whoever for whatever reasons but the actors brought a joie de vivre to their roles that has attracted a devoted Voyager fan following.

I don't need it to be DS9 or NuBSG because I already have DS9 and NuBSG

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
You really can't compare TNG, DS9, and Voyager to one another because they're entirely different. TNG is almost wholly episodic, DS9 is heavily serialized, and Voyager is a hybrid of those two formats that, as I have noted, is analogous to a 'serialized procedural drama' such as Bones.
I think this is a great way of describing it.
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:16 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.