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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 30 2013, 05:44 AM   #46
billcosby
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Well there could easily be a loop around the facet of Earth hanging in the balance; if Earth's prosperity and safety was tethered to a politically stable Romulus? Maybe they should have aimed closer to The Undiscovered Country than Khan.
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Old September 30 2013, 07:44 AM   #47
TheSubCommander
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Shinzon's motives never made ANY sense. Why does he want to destroy Earth exactly? EVERYTHING that's revealed about him makes it much more likely that he'd want to destroy Romulus. The Romulans created him, the Romulans abandoned him and sent him to die a slow and painful death in the mines, the Romulans abuse, oppress, and mistreat his Reman "brothers." If the plot made ANY sense, then he should be attacking Romulus, not Earth. The only thing that Picard ever did to Shinzon was to exist, and without Picard, Shinzon wouldn't exist. Picard wasn't even aware of Shinzon's existence or who he was until Shinzon TOLD HIM. It's like the screenwriters didn't bother to apply ANY kind of logic to their characters or plot, how did the studio allow this script to be filmed, I'll never understand that. Still, Nemesis was NOWHERE near as infuriating as Insurrection, I HATE that movie.
Actually, his motives, as retarded as they are, aren't any more retarded than Nero's, yet Trek '09 is considered by some to be cinematic gold! In fact, Nero hanging out for like 25 years in space to blow up Vulcan and and try to do that to Earth, are even worse!

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Old September 30 2013, 01:04 PM   #48
grendelsbayne
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Nero and Shinzon are both absolutely terrible villains. The only reason ST09 is somewhat better (though not getting anywhere near cinematic gold, imo), is because 09 has a better sense of humor ( for me, the only real significant improvement Abrams has brought to Trek, so far) and because Nero's sucky characterization feels slightly less disappointing since the film literally spells it out for everyone that he's really just a plot device designed to make the time travel reboot possible, rather than a villain who's actually supposed to be interesting in and of himself.
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Old October 1 2013, 04:49 AM   #49
The Old Mixer
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Re: Shinzon's motives

billcosby wrote: View Post
^^ I agree, far more interesting.
Although the story might be a hard sell to some.

V/O ANNOUNCER: Watch as Picard actually defends The Federation's most secretive enemy... the ROMULANS.
JOE SIX PACK: Romul-whose? I wanna see Picard save the Earth again. Because that's where I live dangnabbit, on EARTH. Yee-haw!
The movie tanked. Apparently saving Earth didn't interest Joe Six Pack either.
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Old October 1 2013, 05:52 AM   #50
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Re: Shinzon's motives

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nero and Shinzon are both absolutely terrible villains. The only reason ST09 is somewhat better (though not getting anywhere near cinematic gold, imo), is because 09 has a better sense of humor ( for me, the only real significant improvement Abrams has brought to Trek, so far) and because Nero's sucky characterization feels slightly less disappointing since the film literally spells it out for everyone that he's really just a plot device designed to make the time travel reboot possible, rather than a villain who's actually supposed to be interesting in and of himself.

yep, exactly right. Nero was a lousy villain, but wasn't nearly as significant to the movie as Shinzon was to NEM.
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Old October 1 2013, 10:26 AM   #51
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Shinzon was mentally ill, after a life of terrible abuse. His want to destroy Earth and Picard, to drag Picard down and prove himself equal to them fits with paranoid behaviours.

I wonder if those who refuse to accept Shinzon's motives have any experience with the mentally ill?

See also: Hitler. The legend goes that a Jew beat him out of a place in art school, thus: attempted genocide. Yet nobody calls him unrealistic.
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Old October 1 2013, 10:41 AM   #52
grendelsbayne
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Re: Shinzon's motives

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon was mentally ill, after a life of terrible abuse. His want to destroy Earth and Picard, to drag Picard down and prove himself equal to them fits with paranoid behaviours.

I wonder if those who refuse to accept Shinzon's motives have any experience with the mentally ill?

See also: Hitler. The legend goes that a Jew beat him out of a place in art school, thus: attempted genocide. Yet nobody calls him unrealistic.
I'll call him a whiny-ass moron. Just because a character potentially has a moderately believable real world explanation, doesn't make them a good character. Especially since the movie couldn't be bothered to engage Shinzon as truly insane, so much as just generically destructive. If it had been less of a straight-up adventure with Shinzon as the Bad Man and more of a serious drama about what to do with this clearly damaged, but unfortunately powerful person, then maybe it would have been a slightly better movie.

Also, Hitler's story has a few more stops along the way than just 'failed artist -> attempted genocide'...
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Old October 1 2013, 04:22 PM   #53
sonak
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Re: Shinzon's motives

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shinzon was mentally ill, after a life of terrible abuse. His want to destroy Earth and Picard, to drag Picard down and prove himself equal to them fits with paranoid behaviours.

I wonder if those who refuse to accept Shinzon's motives have any experience with the mentally ill?

See also: Hitler. The legend goes that a Jew beat him out of a place in art school, thus: attempted genocide. Yet nobody calls him unrealistic.

"he's just crazy" is pretty much THE definition of a poorly-motivated villain.
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Old October 1 2013, 10:58 PM   #54
OpenMaw
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Avatar, also, proves that you don't need Earth to hang in the balance, or much of Earth at all, to make a successful science fiction film. (Note: I don't like Avatar, but it was a mega huge hit, and people were damn near killing themselves over the emotional connection they had with a completely alien species and planet that had no connection to Earth at all.)

I would honestly totally rewrite Shinzon as a character. I'd cut out the whole Troi subplot, i'd cut out the dying subplot. Instead his focus would be entirely a Hitler-inspired ideology of genocide against the Romulans. The Enterprise would, much like her predecessor in Yesterday's Enterprise, make a last ditch stand. This time, defending the Romulan's from Shinzon's radiation weapon.
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Old October 2 2013, 01:05 AM   #55
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Re: Shinzon's motives

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Avatar, also, proves that you don't need Earth to hang in the balance, or much of Earth at all, to make a successful science fiction film.
That a scifi story needs Earth to be successful is bullshit talk anyway. The success of a film depends on the execution and not on a list of checkpoints of stuff to put into. Oh, we need a scene on Earth at 8 minutes, a hot babe at 12 minutes, an explosion at 15 minutes, and the car chase at 24 minutes needs to be with BMW cars because market research shows that people associate BMW cars with aggression and action. All that is bullshit.

Sad thing is that some producers and writers actually think like that.
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Old October 2 2013, 04:21 AM   #56
The Old Mixer
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Proof positive that you can make a genre film that has nothing to do with Earth and take the box office by storm? Star Wars.
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Old October 2 2013, 06:06 AM   #57
Therin of Andor
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Proof positive that you can make a genre film that has nothing to do with Earth and take the box office by storm? Star Wars.
And yet I recall discussion at the time that Alderaan was deliberately made a blue planet to remind us that it could have just as easily been Earth.
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Old October 2 2013, 08:00 AM   #58
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Proof positive that you can make a genre film that has nothing to do with Earth and take the box office by storm? Star Wars.
And yet I recall discussion at the time that Alderaan was deliberately made a blue planet to remind us that it could have just as easily been Earth.
We still associate ourselves with the 'humans' in Star Wars.

We only really cared about the Ewok planet because our heroes were there.

I care about Romulus and Vulcan being destroyed because I'm involved in the mythos but my non-Star Trek husband couldn't care less about them.
I also didn't care about the people on Veridian 3.

When we hear about an overseas disaster it sometimes only makes the news here if our fellow countrymen were involved.
I hate to be mean but the massacre in Kenya recently only became of 'real interest' on the news because citizens from our country were killed.
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Old October 2 2013, 08:11 AM   #59
OpenMaw
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Re: Shinzon's motives

It's less about being human, and more about familiarity and proximity.

The people on Veridian 3 were never shown as a living breathing people, we never got to know them in any way, and thusly their death is distant, cold, and not much of a stakes raiser emotionally.

Whereas in the aforementioned Avatar, or even Star Wars (Since, contrary to their appearances none of them are "human" )we get to know and understand the characters, their motivations, their strengths and weaknesses, and their relationships with each other. Good story comes from good character.
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Old October 2 2013, 08:25 PM   #60
Khan444
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Nero may not have been a particularly memorable villain, but he was still better than Shinzon. At least Nero's insanity was more apparent and his mad quest for revenge, as problematic as it was, made SOME sense, unlike Shinzon. Spock did promise to save Romulus, and failed, resulting in the death of Nero's pregnant wife and the extinction of most of his race. That may not be much, but it is still more motive than Shinzon, who has NO reason to hate Picard or Earth and EVERY reason to hate the Romulans. Also, trying to justify Shinzon being poorly written by bringing up Nero doesn't change the fact that Shinzon was poorly written, it just means that Nero was as well, but Shinzon was written worse.
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