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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 2 2013, 03:39 AM   #16
Franklin
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't think it would have worked, but it would have explained why Harrison actually seemed to care about his 'crew'. The Khan I am familiar with cares nothing about anyone but himself (Well, maybe Joachim. But that's it. ) That's one of the things I didn't "get" about the film - it actually made Khan care about people. His appearance in TOS made it clear that Khan cares nothing for anyone other than Khan. (Don't believe me? Look how he treated Marla McGivers.) Soran, for his part, would not have had this problem. But Khan would, since he was an Augment, and it's pretty much built-in that Augments have no compassion.
Well, it was said in "Space Seed" that the augments had superior ambitions, but I don't remember anything about them not being capable of compassion. It's been a while since I've seen "Space Seed", but I remember Khan being quite genuinely happy to see his people unfrozen, again.
I would also guess that in his time on Ceti Alpha VI, he did all he could to struggle to keep his people alive, including his wife, Marla, which probably only increased his bitterness towards others outside his group and increased the deepness of the feelings of unity all the survivors on the planet had for each other.

This following is the change to his name I'd have made.
"John Harrison was a fiction created the moment I was taken by your Admiral Marcus to help him advance his cause, a smokescreen to conceal my true identity. Some call me, Tim."

Edited to add: Julian Bashir was an augment (though of another era), and he was full of compassion.
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Last edited by Franklin; October 2 2013 at 03:57 AM.
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Old October 2 2013, 06:00 AM   #17
FormerLurker
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

"This is Ceti Alpha Five!" Khan
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Old October 2 2013, 06:01 AM   #18
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

If the villain had been Soran would it have been Spock dead under the bridge?
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Old October 2 2013, 06:35 AM   #19
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Franklin wrote: View Post
Julian Bashir was an augment (though of another era), and he was full of compassion.
Julian wasn't the same kind of Augment that Khan and his ilk were.
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Old October 2 2013, 07:04 AM   #20
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

I read this same post on IMDB a while back, but there it looks like it was quoted from somewhere else as well. Not sure where though.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/.../216903041?p=1

I agree with what most have said, it doesn't matter if it was Khan, Soran, or whoever. Personally, I liked Soran as a villain because I liked Malcolm McDowell's performance, so I think it would have been neat, however ultimately it didn't really matter.
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Old October 2 2013, 07:14 AM   #21
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

TOS Khan was prepared to sacrifice his and Kirk's crew just to prove he was superior to Kirk.
I got the impression in TOS that his crew was a bunch of arrogant supermen and superwomen like himself who were united under his rule that he respected but needed to dominate.

Perhaps after his hardships on that planet he grew to 'love' his people in TWOK. Of course revenge was a higher priority than their lives.

Maybe nuKhan grew to love his people or realised he was alone without them in nuTrek. Marcus had a year to play mindtricks on Khan.
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Old October 3 2013, 07:29 AM   #22
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Till the end, I was holding out for Gary Mitchell to be the villain of STID. Through the power of digital editing we can have a glimpse of what could have been.





Last edited by AllStarEntprise; October 3 2013 at 07:40 AM.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:18 AM   #23
JarodRussell
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

People who think that hairstyle on Alice Eve is coincidence are nuts.

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Maybe nuKhan grew to love his people or realised he was alone without them in nuTrek. Marcus had a year to play mindtricks on Khan.
nuKhan was a completely different character. Like when he talks about his "savagery". Bull. Khan considered himself a superior being, and he was a leader, a despot, and Montalban's class conveyed that on screen, especially in Space Seed. There is no savagery in that.
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Old October 3 2013, 10:59 AM   #24
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Maybe nuKhan grew to love his people or realised he was alone without them in nuTrek. Marcus had a year to play mindtricks on Khan.
nuKhan was a completely different character. Like when he talks about his "savagery". Bull. Khan considered himself a superior being, and he was a leader, a despot, and Montalban's class conveyed that on screen, especially in Space Seed. There is no savagery in that.
'Superior' is a notoriously fuzzy concept.
It is quite believable that a conqueror/despot of half of Earth considers savagery to be a 'superior' trait; one quite consistent with having refined manners, being highly intelligent and a casanova, etc.
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Old October 3 2013, 01:40 PM   #25
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
People who think that hairstyle on Alice Eve is coincidence are nuts.

The Umbrella Corporation wrote: View Post
Maybe nuKhan grew to love his people or realised he was alone without them in nuTrek. Marcus had a year to play mindtricks on Khan.
nuKhan was a completely different character. Like when he talks about his "savagery". Bull. Khan considered himself a superior being, and he was a leader, a despot, and Montalban's class conveyed that on screen, especially in Space Seed. There is no savagery in that.
Montalban's Khan and his men demonstrated savagery on McGivers and Uhura 60s style.
Actually I don't think it would be acceptable for men to slap around women on screen nowadays

Cumberbatch demonstrated his savagery 21st century style by blowing up things and using guns and his fists

I do think the idea of suffocating the crew was pretty stylish of PrimeKhan. Maybe a year under the control of Section 31 has made Khan lose his class.

Yes and Alice Eves hairstyle was definitely a misdirect
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Old October 3 2013, 04:50 PM   #26
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
'Superior' is a notoriously fuzzy concept.
It is quite believable that a conqueror/despot of half of Earth considers savagery to be a 'superior' trait; one quite consistent with having refined manners, being highly intelligent and a casanova, etc.
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: And very little freedom.
McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.


*After Khan takes over the ship*

Khan: Nothing ever changes, except man. Your technical accomplishments? Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man and you gain a thousand fold. I am such a man. Join me. I'll treat you well. I need your training to operate a vessel this complex.

I'm not seeing the savage part. Maybe Spock Prime saw it when he described Khan like this.

Prime Spock: He will not hesitate to kill every last one of you.

Only when he's pushed into a corner with no chance to get what he wants. Heck, even when he had the opportunity to destroy the Enterprise completely in The Wrath of Khan, he does something worse than hesitate. He gloats.

Khan: I deprive your ship of power and when I swing around I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you.

And in a total savage like manner, is open to terms with Kirk in sparring his crew in exchange for Kirk and the Genesis information. Sure it might be a trick, but than again Khan could have easily killed the entire crew of the Reliant. But we can't have a Khan who could potentially be a good guy in this new take, can we? Let's throw in a heaping dose of retcon.

Jesus Khan: Spock, give me my crew.
NuSpock: What will you do when you get them?
Jesus Khan: Continue the work we were doing before we were banished.
NuSpock: Which as I understand it involves the mass genocide of any being you find to be less than superior.



Khan wasn't Banished, he fled. He didn't want to kill everyone he deemed inferior, only to give them his idea of order. He wasn't condemned to space as war criminals, he and his followers followed him to seek out a new world and build an empire without the interference of humanity. Nobody on the high court gave two craps about Khan's character outside of the fact that he was the villain in the film that's been praised to be the best film of the series. To them, Khan being the villain meant he was an inherently evil person which I is, as Jarod said, is Bull.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:03 PM   #27
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Jeyl

Khan tortured Carol Marcus's science team to obtain information; and then he killed them because he just felt like it.
But wait - he was always ready with a little narcissistic speech or a Shakespeare quote when putting a brain eating bug in your head, etc - which makes all the difference in the world, of course. He was just misunderstood - no savagery to see here, folks; move on.

Your examples only managed to show Khan could restrain himself when it was to his advantage - as would be expected from the conqueror of half of Earth. How many millions died for Khan's delusions of grandeur in those wars, Jeyl?

BTW - You actually attribute humanistic reasons to Khan being forced to flee in order to escape the consequences of his rule at the hands of his ex-subjects/the people he failed to enslave? Really?
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; October 3 2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:33 PM   #28
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Till the end, I was holding out for Gary Mitchell to be the villain of STID.
I doubt they would have used an adaption of Where No Man Has Gone Before to star the NuTrek ongoing comic if they were planning on using Mitchell considering that the NuTrek novels that were cancelled seemed to touch on stuff that was in Into Darkness.

Not to mention the fact that for "Harrison" to be Gary Mitchell would have required nerfing Mitchell considerably considering he had godlike powers.

It also doesn't work for "Harrison" to be Soran either because he never had super human abilities near as I can tell.

Also no offense but destroying the Enterprise-D doesn't make someone a threat since the writers made that so easy a kindergartner could do it.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:38 PM   #29
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

You could fit in any villain you like in place of Khan, the same way you could fit in any crew in the Trek reboot, but anyone creative with some business acumen would see that using the most memorable and appealing of characters works best for modern day Trek.

As usual, fan derived ideas should stay in the fan fic section where it can't do anyone any further harm.
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Old October 3 2013, 05:40 PM   #30
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Re: My name is.....SORAN!

Jeyl wrote: View Post

NuSpock: Which as I understand it involves the mass genocide of any being you find to be less than superior.
I'll admit I had a problem with this line by Spock. It is a very inaccurate statement of the background and motives of the character. According to what's said in "Space Seed", there were no massacres or wars under his tyranny. Of course, he was still a ruthless tyrant, imposing only the type of order he saw fit.

Khan and his people were also not fleeing a death sentence (so far as we know from "Space Seed"), but I'll chalk that up to Marcus saying whatever he thought he needed to say to try to persuade Kirk to turn Khan over to him. As I remember it, they escaped (exiled themselves, basically) before being brought to any justice. Then again, maybe they were sentenced to death in absentia.

The other interesting thing I noticed from re-reading the script of "Space Seed" is that there were originally been 85 cryo-tubes. Scotty told Kirk twelve units malfunctioned, leaving 72 others still alive. He said that after Khan had been revived, so the 72 left probably didn't count the thawed Khan, only the remaining operating tubes. Interesting how the universes operate. Those twelve poor slobs didn't stand a chance in either of them.
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Last edited by Franklin; October 3 2013 at 06:56 PM.
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