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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 30 2013, 08:49 AM   #31
teacake
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy..

1. We don't know if Meru would have been allowed to "go back". Correct me if I'm wrong but as I recall she was taken against her will from the caves or whatever along with a bunch of other women and at no point during the taking was anyone allowed to say, "no thank you" and left alone. If she could have after a month of Dukat's bed said she wanted to go home do you really think she would be allowed to? Sure he may have cast her out of his bed, sure he may well have not killed her, but that's no guarantee she would go home. More likely shipped off to some Cardassian workhouse, maybe even on trumped up charges that kept her in a penal system. There's your paperwork taken care of. Nothing about Dukat indicates that he would let her go home just like that.

2. I agree she drank the Kool Aid. However:

teacake:
Kira has very black and white thinking and her character arc is often about learning to see that life is more complicated than that even, or especially, during war.

Her mother was ultimately a survivor using whatever tools she had for taking care of her family which included taking care of herself. If she had let her position as Dukat's sex slave psychologically and emotionally destroy her he would have lost interest in her and discarded her. Her children would no longer be fed. So by embracing the role and enjoying aspects of it (good food, physical safety, conversation) she kept this arrangement, and therefore her children, alive. This is not weakness.
Guy:
If she was constantly telling her self that? Like Walt on Breaking Bad... "I'm doing this for my Family" Fine.

But Meru drank the cool aide.

There was no moral scales, no constant assessment of if she had gone one hummer too far. She sold out her planet for fresh fruit.
She could put aside all her fears and concerns for her children getting food (and that's what Nerys says, that she remembers eating better).

Both of these things can exist simultaneously, that she was seduced by luxury and Dukat's charisma and that she had peace that her children were being cared for and spared being rounded up and sent somewhere more heinous than their current life (like a laboratory or a particularly awful camp). However much she was personally seduced, that her children's wellbeing was no longer something she feared for cannot be left out of the equation.

Meru never once considered saying no, or sticking a knife in Dukat's throat.
Would she have stabbed Dukat or tried to leave if she didn't have the assurance and the peace of mind that her children were fine? We do not know. Not everyone can be a hero, but that doesn't make everyone who isn't is a coward. We do know though that for Meru the stakes were considerably less high once her children were safe.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:52 AM   #32
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy, I think you'll say anything that crosses your mind. Some times it's fun, sometimes it's not.
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Old September 30 2013, 09:52 AM   #33
Guy Gardener
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Teacake, I didn't say that they would send Meru home, but I did suggest that they could demote her into a parallel field like ore processing, like how what happened with Kira after she decked a guard, if she was mildly resistant to the program.

BASSO: Well done. I can hardly believe that you're the same women I met yesterday. In fact, you're not. Your old lives have ended. Your pasts have been erased. You have one purpose and one purpose only. To provide comfort and care to the Cardassian officers stationed here. Do that well, and you'll want for nothing. Fail, and you and your family will be sent to a labour camp. Now remember, ladies, you're all easily replaceable. Make one mistake and I won't hesitate to
Kira beat up a guard and nothing too horrible happened. She was just moved to the Stations general labour pool. Obviously Basso was exaggerating about how much power he had, and the women who didn't make it as whores would also be moved to other fields if they didn't cut the mustard in their monthly evaluations.
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Old September 30 2013, 09:53 AM   #34
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Guy, I think you'll say anything that crosses your mind. Some times it's fun, sometimes it's not.

I just deleted half the post above where I thunderdomed rape vs. slavery.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:00 AM   #35
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Teacake, I didn't say that they would send Meru home, but I did suggest that they could demote her into a parallel field like ore processing, like how what happened with Kira after she decked a guard, if she was mildly resistant to the program.
You said:

The well being of her family was not threatened. The opposite happened. It was made better, and if she went back to them it just would have gone back to the regular degree of horrible and not a new depth of horrible, if she managed her withdrawl with some grace.
Which is talking about "if" she went back to them and what the conditions would be like. So this seems to be about an option she theoretically had that she failed to take?

BASSO: Well done. I can hardly believe that you're the same women I met yesterday. In fact, you're not. Your old lives have ended. Your pasts have been erased. You have one purpose and one purpose only. To provide comfort and care to the Cardassian officers stationed here. Do that well, and you'll want for nothing. Fail, and you and your family will be sent to a labour camp. Now remember, ladies, you're all easily replaceable. Make one mistake and I won't hesitate to
Kira beat up a guard and nothing too horrible happened. She was just moved to the Stations general labour pool. Obviously Basso was exaggerating about how much power he had, and the women who didn't make it as whores would also be moved to other fields if they didn't cut the mustard in their monthly evaluations.
uhh.. but he said their families would be sent to labor camps.

She is told right here that if she fails it will suck big time for her family. It doesn't matter if Basso is a blowhard who can't do that, evaluating how much power people have over her isn't possible in her position.

So this is actually even worse than I remembered it. Dukat didn't just provide food and protection, had she failed things would have potentially not gone back to the "regular old horrible" but gotten much worse. So I don't see how you can say (above) that "the well being of her family was not threatened".
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Last edited by teacake; September 30 2013 at 10:20 AM.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:08 AM   #36
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

I need an intern.

It's 1942 and Hitler is sleep naked, snoring beside you.

Do you snuggle or stab?
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Old September 30 2013, 10:12 AM   #37
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

But she doesn't know he's Hitler. He's just some hot SS guy, seemingly hotter and nicer and more generous than all the other buffoons she's been dealing with for years.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:26 AM   #38
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

BASSO: From now on you'll receive extra rations of food and medicine, courtesy of our Prefect, Gul Dukat.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prefect

Dude was in charge of the planet.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:32 AM   #39
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

If she killed him they would have just promoted someone else to Prefect. But first a whole lot of Bajorans, including her family, would have died in retribution. Nothing would have changed though any need to be seen as reasonable would give way to an even more visibly hardline approach towards the Bajoran people.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:41 AM   #40
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

But that's how terrorism works.

(George Washington was a terrorist against the legal rule of British Colonialism.)

Leia didn't do shit, and Tarkin still blew up Aalderan.

It doesn't matter the consequences, you keep hitting until they just give up and piss off.

besides they have to be careful about making Martyrs.

KIRA: You're really not cut out for this, are you? Being a terrorist, I mean. You're not very good at it.
RIKER: Really?
KIRA: You're acting more like a Starfleet officer who's more interested in intelligence reports and Cardassian politics than in actually hurting Cardassians. You have one of the most powerful ships in this quadrant under your command. Why aren't you out attacking every Cardassian outpost along the border?
RIKER: Because these stakes here are far greater than border outposts.
KIRA: Not for the Maquis, they're not, because the Maquis are terrorists and the only thing terrorists care about is attacking the enemy. I know. I was a terrorist. And if I'd had this ship then, I would've destroyed Deep Space Nine. I would've hit the Cardassians so hard they would have screamed for peace, but I certainly wouldn't have gone flying off into the middle of Cardassia on some wild goose chase.
RIKER: I guess we're different kinds of terrorists.
KIRA: No, you're trying to be a hero. Terrorists don't get to be heroes.
RIKER: We'll see.
How many prefects have to die until no one wants the job?

My guess is 7.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:59 AM   #41
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

I would blow Dukat for an hour every night if it protected my kids. Meru may not be a hero by Riker's standards or a terrorist by her daughter's but she's a hero to me. Ultimately she kept her children safe, passivity and charming Hitler being the tools she had in her toolbox. If it wasn't all hell for her so be it.. as I pointed out in my previous posts part of what allowed it not to be hell for her was having a peace that her children were protected.
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Old September 30 2013, 11:36 AM   #42
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

And yet somehow despite being relatively privileged... Kira still chooses to become a resistance fighter, winding up huddling for warmth in caves hunted by drones.

I think the communication break down here is with Taban.

By claiming that Meru died a hero at a refugee camp, it unfairly vilified their families benefactors, who she should have praised for the roof above their heads, and also gone into dutiful service for.

Although if Kira was told the truth, and someone, anyone, found out, then the entire family would have been burnt at the stake for colloborating by the resistance.

She didn't appreciate the love her alien overlords had for her, becuase it was shielded from her by her father's shame.
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Old September 30 2013, 11:50 AM   #43
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Now I remember, wasn't there talk at some point in the show's production about making Nerys and Dukat a couple? I recall hearing something about Nana Visitor finding out about this and going berserk at the idea.
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Old September 30 2013, 12:35 PM   #44
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Mr. Gardner,

Just because there were slaves in the house and slaves in the field does not mean that either one was more free than the other. One may have enjoyed a modicum of comfort over the other. Nonetheless, they were trapped by a system in which they were at their masters' mercy. They did not need to be reminded that their lives were in jeopardy: the system did that for the masters. The fact that the masters were technocrats did not make them merciful. The fact that some proclaimed to be more benevolent did not make them so, and the slaves could not take that claim at face value.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:11 PM   #45
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Yeah, her dad lied about what happened to mom. I might too in that situation. "Oh no honey, your mom's alive and has been the mistress of our planet's evil overlord... oh it's evening at Terok Nor standard time now, she he's probably banging her right now."

Not only is a noble death a bit more... merciful... on children's ears, but what was Kira's reaction when he learned of it? Oh yeah, she was a collaborator and deserved to die. Maybe he didn't want their kids to hate their mother.
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