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Old September 30 2013, 03:36 AM   #16
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

^ Indeed.
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Old September 30 2013, 03:47 AM   #17
Guy Gardener
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Rape?

At worst it was a financial transaction.

(There was a line from the evil villain on Devious Maids last week: "No son, I didn't rape her. Don't be ridiculous. You can't rape a whore.")

Loving sexy mistress in exchange for the elevation of the well being of her husband and children.

(That's why everyone in the real world drones goes to work in the morning. Well "everyone" is not a mistress, but they certainly exchange the doing of unsettling things for the well being of their loved ones.)

Here's the problem.

Meru and Dukat were both delusional.

They both forgot that she was being paid to pretend and just got on with it.

She was weak, and he was crazy.

In exchange for the fancy life Dukat was giving her, she forgot about the concentration camps and the resistance living in caves fighting to free Bajor.

That was the point of the story.

Kira's mummy was a dirty no good collaborator.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:47 AM   #18
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Rape?

At worst it was a financial transaction.

(There was a line from the evil villain on Devious Maids last week: "No son, I didn't rape her. Don't be ridiculous. You can't rape a whore.")

Loving sexy mistress in exchange for the elevation of the well being of her husband and children.

(That's why everyone in the real world drones goes to work in the morning. Well "everyone" is not a mistress, but they certainly exchange the doing of unsettling things for the well being of their loved ones.)

Here's the problem.

Meru and Dukat were both delusional.

They both forgot that she was being paid to pretend and just got on with it.

She was weak, and he was crazy.

In exchange for the fancy life Dukat was giving her, she forgot about the concentration camps and the resistance living in caves fighting to free Bajor.

That was the point of the story.

Kira's mummy was a dirty no good collaborator.


Great description of a shell-shocked, starved, over-worked woman who has been led off of armed guards.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:03 AM   #19
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Yes, rape, Guy Gardener.

What do you think would've happened if she'd initially said no to Dukat's men? Do you think they would've just left her and her family alone to live out their lives in peace? I seriously doubt it! If she agreed to the sexual relationship with Dukat because her life and/or wellbeing or that of her family was threatened... that was rape. It's totally irrelevant that she developed feelings for him. If you don't understand why, look up Stockholm Syndrome.

And, yes, of course one can rape a whore.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:26 AM   #20
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Kira has very black and white thinking and her character arc is often about learning to see that life is more complicated than that even, or especially, during war.

Her mother was ultimately a survivor using whatever tools she had for taking care of her family which included taking care of herself. If she had let her position as Dukat's sex slave psychologically and emotionally destroy her he would have lost interest in her and discarded her. Her children would no longer be fed. So by embracing the role and enjoying aspects of it (good food, physical safety, conversation) she kept this arrangement, and therefore her children, alive. This is not weakness.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:33 AM   #21
Tosk
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
In exchange for the fancy life Dukat was giving her, she forgot about the concentration camps and the resistance living in caves fighting to free Bajor.

That was the point of the story.

Kira's mummy was a dirty no good collaborator.
Personally, I thought the point of the story was that Nerys believed as you do, but discovered that Meru did what she did to save her family. Nerys may not have condoned Meru's choices, but it was definitely more "grey area" than she first thought.

EDIT: And what Teacake said.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:35 AM   #22
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

What's the name of the episode we're talking about? I might re-watch it.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:42 AM   #23
Peach Wookiee
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

And that Meru did what was necessary kind of makes Dukat her stepfather which makes his interest in her all the more creepy... "I bedded her... and her mother."
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Old September 30 2013, 05:45 AM   #24
teacake
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Her stepfather? I don't think there is any kind of way this is so.

But yes, he's interested in Kira just to extend the conquest.
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Old September 30 2013, 05:47 AM   #25
Tosk
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
What's the name of the episode we're talking about? I might re-watch it.
"Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night"
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Old September 30 2013, 06:13 AM   #26
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

^ Thank you.
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Old September 30 2013, 06:26 AM   #27
Guy Gardener
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post



Great description of a shell-shocked, starved, over-worked woman who has been led off of armed guards.
Nonsense. The occupation had been going for twenty years before Dukat took over. Meru never had a good life to expect any better, which is why privilege was so seductive. The Cardassians kept meticulous records, which means that they kept meticulous justifications. Kira transitioned back to ore processing from Comfortgirl just fine. Sure they'd work some one to death, but they'd never execute a worker in public with out notarizing the correct forms, and that pimp so did not have the authority to have his stable thinned.

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
Yes, rape, Guy Gardener.

What do you think would've happened if she'd initially said no to Dukat's men? Do you think they would've just left her and her family alone to live out their lives in peace? I seriously doubt it! If she agreed to the sexual relationship with Dukat because her life and/or wellbeing or that of her family was threatened... that was rape. It's totally irrelevant that she developed feelings for him. If you don't understand why, look up Stockholm Syndrome.
The well being of her family was not threatened. The opposite happened. It was made better, and if she went back to them it just would have gone back to the regular degree of horrible and not a new depth of horrible, if she managed her withdrawl with some grace.

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
And, yes, of course one can rape a whore.
You really don't understand words do you?

teacake wrote: View Post
Kira has very black and white thinking and her character arc is often about learning to see that life is more complicated than that even, or especially, during war.

Her mother was ultimately a survivor using whatever tools she had for taking care of her family which included taking care of herself. If she had let her position as Dukat's sex slave psychologically and emotionally destroy her he would have lost interest in her and discarded her. Her children would no longer be fed. So by embracing the role and enjoying aspects of it (good food, physical safety, conversation) she kept this arrangement, and therefore her children, alive. This is not weakness.
If she was constantly telling her self that? Like Walt on Breaking Bad... "I'm doing this for my Family" Fine.

But Meru drank the cool aide.

There was no moral scales, no constant assessment of if she had gone one hummer too far. She sold out her planet for fresh fruit.

Meru never once considered saying no, or sticking a knife in Dukat's throat.

From the first moment she was yes, yes yes.

Dukat seduced her, and then made her life wonderful.

She thought that she was special.

An 8 year relationship that only concluded becuase she died?

(Unless he killed her) She was special.

Did he lie?

No more than I would have had to bed any of the boys here.

Tosk wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
In exchange for the fancy life Dukat was giving her, she forgot about the concentration camps and the resistance living in caves fighting to free Bajor.

That was the point of the story.

Kira's mummy was a dirty no good collaborator.
Personally, I thought the point of the story was that Nerys believed as you do, but discovered that Meru did what she did to save her family. Nerys may not have condoned Meru's choices, but it was definitely more "grey area" than she first thought.

EDIT: And what Teacake said.
Which is why Kira changed her mind about the Bomb she set that was going to kill her mommy, but really forgiving and forgetting are two entirely different things.

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
What's the name of the episode we're talking about? I might re-watch it.
Darker_Than_Death_or_Night


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Old September 30 2013, 07:12 AM   #28
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

He definitely was, though I suspect it was more to see how she compared to her mother.

I do think that it would've been so much better if Dukat (after his breakdown) had revealed that "Tora Naprem" was actual an alias for Kira Meru and that Ziyal was her half sister. It would've been a nice bit to add to her already tragic family history.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:01 AM   #29
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

Guy, your offbeat rambling is often entertaining, or at least harmless. This time, not so much.
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Old September 30 2013, 08:29 AM   #30
Guy Gardener
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Re: Dukat attracted to Nerys?

You think I'm happy about this?
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