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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old September 29 2013, 02:54 PM   #1
Noddy
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Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

I remember how huge a lot of people seemed to think Nemesis was going to be when it was on its way, all the hype around it. And then it was finally released, and it was a disaster, a total damp squib ruined by poor decisions on the part of the makers, and corner-cutting. Very, VERY underwhelming, and a big blow to everyone who'd looked forward to it. In all honesty, this is kind of how I feel about DW's fiftieth anniversary special right now; Moffat and the BBC are hyping it up enormously, but there are also some indications that it won't do the last fifty years any real justice.
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Old September 29 2013, 03:01 PM   #2
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Noddy wrote: View Post
I remember how huge a lot of people seemed to think Nemesis was going to be when it was on its way, all the hype around it. And then it was finally released, and it was a disaster, a total damp squib ruined by poor decisions on the part of the makers, and corner-cutting. Very, VERY underwhelming, and a big blow to everyone who'd looked forward to it. In all honesty, this is kind of how I feel about DW's fiftieth anniversary special right now; Moffat and the BBC are hyping it up enormously, but there are also some indications that it won't do the last fifty years any real justice.
I don't remember that at all. What I remember, is Nemesis being trashed well in advance of it's release because a copy of the script was leaked.

Honestly, I don't understand why Nemesis is trashed as much as it is (Other than Fan expectations it should have tied into DS9's Dominion Arc, when Romulans were known to be in it), it wasn't perfect, and not even great, but, IMHO, it was miles above Insurrection
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Old September 29 2013, 03:07 PM   #3
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Noddy wrote: View Post
there are also some indications that it won't do the last fifty years any real justice.
Actually, we won't know that until we see it, and even then it's likely that different people will have different opinions about it.
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Old September 29 2013, 03:47 PM   #4
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
I don't remember that at all. What I remember, is Nemesis being trashed well in advance of its release because a copy of the script was leaked.
I remember that well.

I also remember (and still have) the "annotated" screenplay by "The Fixer," the one that did a Mystery Science Theater number on it. I've heard a number of names connected with "The Fixer" over the years.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't understand why Nemesis is trashed as much as it is (Other than Fan expectations it should have tied into DS9's Dominion Arc, when Romulans were known to be in it), it wasn't perfect, and not even great, but, IMHO, it was miles above Insurrection
Largely agreed. I liked Insurrection for what it was and don't think it was a bad movie by any means. And I have never understood the hatred for Nemesis. I like Nemesis far more than First Contact.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:48 PM   #5
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

I liked Nemesis. I didn't like Insurrection much though. But First Contact was the best TNG film, even the best trek film. I like Generations too though.
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Old September 29 2013, 08:09 PM   #6
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

I see no similarity whatsoever to the forthcoming 50th anniversary DW Special and Star Trek: Nemesis.
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Old September 29 2013, 09:27 PM   #7
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Honestly, I don't understand why Nemesis is trashed as much as it is (Other than Fan expectations it should have tied into DS9's Dominion Arc, when Romulans were known to be in it), it wasn't perfect, and not even great, but, IMHO, it was miles above Insurrection
I suspect part of the problem for Nemesis was timing. It was the first Star Trek movie to come out after fan-friendly big-budget SF/F was becoming more common. I think, had it been released in the mid-late 1990s, it would have done fine. But between Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Spider-Man, & the Star Wars prequels, the expectations for what a sci-fi action movie should be were just so different from what Star Trek: Nemesis provided.
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Old September 29 2013, 09:42 PM   #8
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

I've recently watched Nemesis again, and I am amazed how utterly boring it is, despite having more action scenes than the previous TNG films combined.

And I think I know the reason: the direction.

ALL dialoge scenes are characters sitting or standing around doing nothing but talking. And that in a very low key way. There is no energy whatsoever in the character's performances.

Here one example:



Try to imagine the exact same dialogue on the bridge. Imagine it with more energetic performances, a bit louder voices. Imagine it with camera motion, with the characters walking around a bit from viewscreen to the Captain's chair, etc...


What First Contact and Insurrection in comparison. See how Jonathan Frakes staged dialogue scenes. He gives the actors something to do while they are delivering lines. He keeps the camera in motion, he keeps the people in motion. He even keeps the background busy. That way - when dialogue performances are not enough to carry a scene - the action around the performance carries the scene.

Try to imagine all dialogue scenes in First Contact the way they are done in Nemesis, with everyone just standing around doing nothing but delivering their dialogue. Those films would suddenly fall apart.
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Old September 29 2013, 10:24 PM   #9
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

The irony is, at the time, a lot of us were excited that B&B had brought in an outside director (Baird) and writer (Logan), rather than Carson, Frakes or Braga, Moore, or the like. But between Logan being too much of a Trek fan and Baird being too little of one, they turned out a duff movie. I'd agree that Frakes' direction (very under-rates, IMHO) wipes the floor with that of Baird.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:34 PM   #10
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Agreed. Shame that Frakes hasn't gotten more big budget Hollywood work in his career. (I recall a rumor back in the early 2000s that he was in the running to direct the new Superman movie. That would have been cool.)
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Old September 30 2013, 12:12 AM   #11
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Agreed. Shame that Frakes hasn't gotten more big budget Hollywood work in his career. (I recall a rumor back in the early 2000s that he was in the running to direct the new Superman movie. That would have been cool.)
The interesting one -- he was attached to the Total Recall sequel in the mid-90s, when it was going to be an adaptation of "Minority Report" but set on Mars.

From what I understand, he's content to be television director. He works steadily, he's always in demand, and he has his pick of series.

On a Who note, I was surprised that he didn't direct an episode of Torchwood: Miracle Day. So much of that production seemed like an effort to get as many American genre actors and icons on board as possible, and Frakes would have made sense behind the camera.
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Old September 30 2013, 12:59 AM   #12
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
The irony is, at the time, a lot of us were excited that B&B had brought in an outside director (Baird) and writer (Logan), rather than Carson, Frakes or Braga, Moore, or the like. But between Logan being too much of a Trek fan and Baird being too little of one, they turned out a duff movie. I'd agree that Frakes' direction (very under-rates, IMHO) wipes the floor with that of Baird.
Brannon Braga had nothing to do with Nemesis, the last movie had anything to do with was First Contact and that was some six years previous to Nemesis.
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Old September 30 2013, 07:59 AM   #13
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

^Well, excited about the fact that the producers/studio had brought in an outside writer and director.
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Old September 30 2013, 10:50 AM   #14
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

I agree about Frakes, I think he's a damn good director. Thunderbirds wasn't a great film, but crikey it gallops along at a fair old pace, and is never boring.

I like Inusrrection, it ain't great, and it was misadvertised, but it felt like a TNG film. Nemesis by contrast...was a disaster of Star Trek V levels, but without any of the charm that makes you forgive V it's failings. And say what you like about Shatner, on some level he understands what made TOS so great.

But I see no connection between Nemesis and The Day of the Doctor. And seriously Noddy if you think its going to tank so much I presume you won't be watching?
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Old September 30 2013, 12:05 PM   #15
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Re: Remember STAR TREK: NEMESIS?

DWF wrote: View Post
Brannon Braga had nothing to do with Nemesis, the last movie had anything to do with was First Contact and that was some six years previous to Nemesis.
Well, he was producer on that awfull show Treshold which in germany was called Nemesis .
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