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Old September 27 2013, 01:27 PM   #31
Bad Thoughts
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
SignGuyHPW wrote: View Post
The Bajorans were deeply religous and that was a theme in both TNG as well as the entirety of DS9. DS9 was hugely based around religon. Voyager had some religous type themes from time to time.
Wasn't it made rather clear early on that the Bajorans believed the wormhole aliens to be gods? I remember mostly all the conflicts that arose from the religious organization they had set up but not really that any spiritual issues were really discussed or explored.
For the most part, representations of Bajoran religion fall into three categories: the role of the Emissary, involvement in Bajoran politics, and Kira's religious practices. the nature of the Prophets is discussed in a few Emissary episodes, perhaps no more prominently than in Sacrifice of Angels, when Sisko challenged them to "be gods." In terms what the Bajorans believe about the Prophets, I think thsoe fall more into Kira's representation, such as when she prays for Jadzia to get a baby or when Winn consults her about the Prophets' forgiveness. Whatever the Bajorans feel about them, I don't think that the Prophets feel that they are playing the role of gods to the Bajorans.
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Old September 27 2013, 02:01 PM   #32
dub
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

SignGuyHPW wrote: View Post
DS9 was hugely based around religon.
One of the early episodes of "The Orb" features an interesting discussion about how Sisko is basically Moses in space.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:42 PM   #33
grendelsbayne
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well I guess getting married by Elvis is more meaningful than being married by a member of the military as Trek puts forth as the status quo.
Considering that person is generally the commanding officer of the bride and/or groom, ie, the person they trust with their lives on a daily basis, and often, a friendly face or even close friend, I'm not seeing any particular reason why this kind of marriage ceremony should be considered any less meaningful than any 'normal' church wedding.
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Old September 28 2013, 07:45 AM   #34
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
SignGuyHPW wrote: View Post
The Bajorans were deeply religous and that was a theme in both TNG as well as the entirety of DS9. DS9 was hugely based around religon. Voyager had some religous type themes from time to time.
Wasn't it made rather clear early on that the Bajorans believed the wormhole aliens to be gods? I remember mostly all the conflicts that arose from the religious organization they had set up but not really that any spiritual issues were really discussed or explored.
For the most part, representations of Bajoran religion fall into three categories: the role of the Emissary, involvement in Bajoran politics, and Kira's religious practices. the nature of the Prophets is discussed in a few Emissary episodes, perhaps no more prominently than in Sacrifice of Angels, when Sisko challenged them to "be gods." In terms what the Bajorans believe about the Prophets, I think thsoe fall more into Kira's representation, such as when she prays for Jadzia to get a baby or when Winn consults her about the Prophets' forgiveness. Whatever the Bajorans feel about them, I don't think that the Prophets feel that they are playing the role of gods to the Bajorans.
I had someone once tell me that they thought DS9 was portraying Isreal and the Arabs with Bajor and Cardassia playing the roles on the show. I could actually see that. When Ro was introduced they kind of established that Bajorans were deeply religous. Sisko was seen by those people as a religous figure which was not popular amoung Starfleet Command.
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Old September 28 2013, 10:53 AM   #35
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

SignGuyHPW wrote: View Post
Sisko was seen by those people as a religous figure which was not popular amoung Starfleet Command.
I think some members of the admiralty didn't like the idea of a Starfleet officer being hailed as a messiah and spiritual leader by an entire civilization.
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Old September 28 2013, 06:18 PM   #36
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

^ Disregarding that Sisko actually was the emissary, and was brought into existance by the Prophets to be the emissary.


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Old September 28 2013, 10:03 PM   #37
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

But what does the Emissary do? What is the role of the Emissary?

To find the Wormhole/Celestial Temple? Not really, he was not the first in chronologically. May be the first to talk to the Prophets directly? Could be, but then what about the "A Gutted World"?
To break a tablet?
The guy you call when you loose the keys to your wormhole?
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Old September 28 2013, 10:13 PM   #38
C.E. Evans
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Disregarding that Sisko actually was the emissary, and was brought into existance by the Prophets to be the emissary.
Actually, that's disregarding that Sisko was a Starfleet officer on a mission for the Federation. The whole Emissary business was a Bajoran internal thing and not the reason why Starfleet sent him there.
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Old September 28 2013, 10:28 PM   #39
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

I have always viewed Star Trek as Atheistic. Earth, in my interpretation, is thankfully largely free of all the 'gods' that humanity has dreamt up. However, there are some last vestiges of these beliefs kicking about [Phlox in Enterprise mentions a Mass in St Peterburg].

In general, to me, the Federation and humanity in particular, is Atheist but open minded enough not to chastise people for their beliefs. There is a greater understanding of the universe and an appreciation for the philosophy behind our existence instead of embracing silly ancient texts.

As for DS9, those wormhole aliens actually existed. They also posses vast power like other aliens we have encountered. They may be 'gods' to the more primitive Bajorans but not to the Federation [as Dax highlights].
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Old September 29 2013, 01:58 AM   #40
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

Hando wrote: View Post
But what does the Emissary do? What is the role of the Emissary?

To find the Wormhole/Celestial Temple? Not really, he was not the first in chronologically.
The Prophets do not exist in linear or chronological time. His being the first or not doesn't matter.

May be the first to talk to the Prophets directly? Could be, but then what about the "A Gutted World"?
Novels are non-canon. Further, the book was written in 2008, after DS-9 ended. It doesn't make sense to use this novel, even if you consider it canon, as nullifying The Sisko's role. If anything, the novel is the one that contradicts the series, not the other way around. That is, if it indeed contradicts the series. Contacting The Prophets not be the (sole) reason for The Sisko.

To break a tablet?
The guy you call when you loose the keys to your wormhole?
Well, he spared the Bajoran people from the Dominion. If Bajor had joined the Federation as planned, the Dominion would have destroyed Bajor.
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Old September 29 2013, 06:59 AM   #41
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

I thought it was pretty clear that the Emissary's role included a lot of different things - not just finding the celestial temple and being the 'first' to talk to the prophets.

Through his connection to the prophets, Sisko saved Bajor from Dominion occupation, rediscovered an ancient lost city, and faced down the pah-wraiths on multiple occassions. And the series pretty much stated flat out that all that was only the beginning of his destiny (that being the reason he never returns from the fire caves).
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Old September 29 2013, 08:24 AM   #42
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

I think the real question is what does god need with a starship
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Old September 29 2013, 11:53 AM   #43
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Disregarding that Sisko actually was the emissary, and was brought into existance by the Prophets to be the emissary.
Actually, that's disregarding that Sisko was a Starfleet officer on a mission for the Federation. The whole Emissary business was a Bajoran internal thing and not the reason why Starfleet sent him there.
And ultimately why did Starfleet send Sisko, of all the possible qualified officers, to Bajor?

You believe it to be a pure coincidence?

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty clear that the Emissary's role included a lot of different things - not just finding the celestial temple and being the 'first' to talk to the prophets.
Part of Sisko's "duties' as the Emissary was to convince the Prophets to stop the Dominion fleet within the passage, if the Prophets hadn't done so Bajor would have been harmed and the Federation (Bajor's protectors) easily could have lost the war and been destroyed.

The Prophets created Sisko, so Sisko would subsequently convince them to act.

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Old September 29 2013, 06:47 PM   #44
Bad Thoughts
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty clear that the Emissary's role included a lot of different things - not just finding the celestial temple and being the 'first' to talk to the prophets.
Part of Sisko's "duties' as the Emissary was to convince the Prophets to stop the Dominion fleet within the passage, if the Prophets hadn't done so Bajor would have been harmed and the Federation (Bajor's protectors) easily could have lost the war and been destroyed.
In that case, Sisko was more the Emissary (or at least advocate) to the Bajorans than to the prophets.
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Old September 29 2013, 07:39 PM   #45
C.E. Evans
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Re: The question of God or a higher power in ST

T'Girl wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Disregarding that Sisko actually was the emissary, and was brought into existance by the Prophets to be the emissary.
Actually, that's disregarding that Sisko was a Starfleet officer on a mission for the Federation. The whole Emissary business was a Bajoran internal thing and not the reason why Starfleet sent him there.
And ultimately why did Starfleet send Sisko, of all the possible qualified officers, to Bajor?
To be the commander of an abandoned and somewhat rundown Cardassian space station that would serve as the base of operations for Bajor's post-occupation recovery effort.

It was far from being a glorious assignment, originally, but it would be a step forward again for an officer that had been spinning his wheels for three years at the Utopia Planitia Yards.
You believe it to be a pure coincidence?
Yes, originally. The Wormhole aliens/prophets didn't meet Sisko until after he arrived on DS9 and at first didn't know a single thing about him (they even considered destroying him). But being non-linear beings, they later used the Past to reinforce him as their Emissary. For them, the Past is no different than the Future or the Present, all of it is fluid, but it was Sisko that taught them what Cause and Effect was--even if they sometimes get it backwards.
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