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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 27 2013, 09:38 AM   #31
T'Girl
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Re: The Son'a

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
They don't believe in technology.
Yet they were able to accurately determine the exact problem with Data's positronic brain. They might not use it in their daily lives, but the Baku did possess technology.

They weren't selfish.
Yes they were, and this is why. After they found out about the beneficial properties of the planet, they then did not use their starship (starships) to spread the word to other species that could have benefited. They kept the knowledge to themselves.

And that is the Baku being selfish.

It's dying--condemning 600 people to die--that would ordinarily be immortal.
There is no reason to believe that the Baku wouldn't have the same access to the radiation from the collected particles as others would, the main difference would be the Baku would no longer have exclusive access.

Picard asked an interesting question in this movie: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?"
I would have loved for the Admiral to have immediately confronted Picard with the opposing quesion of how many people have to be helped before it becomes right?

Picard didn't have a logical leg to stand on.

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Old September 27 2013, 12:09 PM   #32
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Re: The Son'a

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Picard asked an interesting question in this movie: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" So ask yourself that when thinking about this. 1 million people have to die where they wouldn't have before. 10 million people. 1 billion people. Why does the number matter?

And another question, why does killing one of the crew, say Data, more objectionable then if we kill 600 people?
What gave the Baku the right to ban the Sona from the planet? Was it wrong for the Baku to relocate the Sona? How many Sona had to die before it was wrong. Or is it OK because the Sona were ugly and the Baku leader was cute. Did Picard check who had the 'moral' right to the planet?

And the Sona weren't planning on killing the Baku- just moving them.

Come to thing of it Admiral Dougherty was probably the noblest one there. He wanted everyone in the Federation to share in the benefits of the planet while the Sona and Baku were thinking only of themselves (who can blame them). Picard maybe was guilty over what happened at "Journeys End" - although it was never said why he had such an about face .
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Old September 27 2013, 09:16 PM   #33
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Re: The Son'a

T'Girl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
It's dying--condemning 600 people to die--that would ordinarily be immortal.
There is no reason to believe that the Baku wouldn't have the same access to the radiation from the collected particles as others would, the main difference would be the Baku would no longer have exclusive access.
They have rejected technology. Taking a drug a form of technology. They would have to give up their way of life in order not to die. That's destroying the culture or destroying them. It also ignores the fact that the Federation was going to move them without ever knowing that they were someplace else, away from the particles. People would just start getting old.


T'Girl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Picard asked an interesting question in this movie: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?"
I would have loved for the Admiral to have immediately confronted Picard with the opposing quesion of how many people have to be helped before it becomes right?

Picard didn't have a logical leg to stand on.

I refer to my examples of the Transcontinental Railroad and the Interstate Highway system. Or Eminent Domain. This is a moral question, one that has no immediate answer. The Federation could've studied the particles, like scientists, and spent years trying to replicate it. They are doing this as a matter of convenience. The Federation hasn't lost anything yet. They would be gaining something.

We can argue about this all day, but remember, we are in the 24th century, not the 21st. Humanity has evolved.
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Old September 27 2013, 09:19 PM   #34
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Re: The Son'a

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Picard asked an interesting question in this movie: "How many people does it take before it becomes wrong?" So ask yourself that when thinking about this. 1 million people have to die where they wouldn't have before. 10 million people. 1 billion people. Why does the number matter?

And another question, why does killing one of the crew, say Data, more objectionable then if we kill 600 people?
What gave the Baku the right to ban the Sona from the planet? Was it wrong for the Baku to relocate the Sona? How many Sona had to die before it was wrong. Or is it OK because the Sona were ugly and the Baku leader was cute. Did Picard check who had the 'moral' right to the planet?

And the Sona weren't planning on killing the Baku- just moving them.

Come to thing of it Admiral Dougherty was probably the noblest one there. He wanted everyone in the Federation to share in the benefits of the planet while the Sona and Baku were thinking only of themselves (who can blame them). Picard maybe was guilty over what happened at "Journeys End" - although it was never said why he had such an about face .
This was addressed in the film. They could establish a separate colony. They "Don't want to live in the middle of the Briar Patch," remember?
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Old September 27 2013, 09:49 PM   #35
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Re: The Son'a

Hate to tell it to you but the whole Baku rejection of technology and the "when you build a machine you take something from the man" is nonsense. Go back and look at their village again.

Irrigated fields with gates, dams, tools, metal forges, carts, spinning wheels, that's all technology and/or machines. To say nothing of the rock quarry and mines they had to have to get all that metal and stone. Maybe not advanced technology or machines, but they still had it.

Not to mention as clean as that freaking place was they either had to have vacuum cleaners stashed away some place or be scrubbing and sweeping for hours a day. Which I guess would explain why they apprenticed for 30 years if they're spending most of their time keeping the place clean.
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Old September 28 2013, 03:45 AM   #36
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Re: The Son'a

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hate to tell it to you but the whole Baku rejection of technology and the "when you build a machine you take something from the man" is nonsense. Go back and look at their village again.

Irrigated fields with gates, dams, tools, metal forges, carts, spinning wheels, that's all technology and/or machines. To say nothing of the rock quarry and mines they had to have to get all that metal and stone. Maybe not advanced technology or machines, but they still had it.

Not to mention as clean as that freaking place was they either had to have vacuum cleaners stashed away some place or be scrubbing and sweeping for hours a day. Which I guess would explain why they apprenticed for 30 years if they're spending most of their time keeping the place clean.

yeah, hippie utopia falls apart if you think about it for longer than ten seconds.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:46 AM   #37
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Re: The Son'a

I would ask Picard why he was fine with forcibly relocating those Indians during Journey's End, but would throw his entire career away to help these people. Is it because they're white and he wants to bang one of them. You know that your movie has problems when even some of the actors disagree with the message.
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Old September 28 2013, 11:18 AM   #38
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Re: The Son'a

Khan444 wrote: View Post
I would ask Picard why he was fine with forcibly relocating those Indians during Journey's End
And those colonists in Ensigns of Command weren't given any choice either.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
It also ignores the fact that the Federation was going to move them without ever knowing that they were someplace else, away from the particles. People would just start getting old.
First off, I agree that moving the Baku employing the holoship was a poor idea, the Baku should have been openly approach and been simply told that they were going to be moved.

However, the holoship was basically only to keep the Baku quiet during the move, once they were at the ultimate destination the Baku would have realized immediately that they were somewhere else.

The Federation could've studied the particles, like scientists
Per dialog from the movie, Starfleet did in fact study the particles prior to the Federation Council's decision to move the Baku and harvest the particles.

Or Eminent Domain.
From dialog in DS9 and ST: Enterprise, as well as the movie, when the Baku arrived on the planet it was in Romulan space, subsequently it became part of the Klingon Empire (there's no indication either ventured into the Brier Patch). At some point the area became part of the Federation. The Enteprise had enough information on the Patch to indicate that Starfleet had at least done a brief survey of the area.

Eminent Domain does appply because the planet was never the Baku's. Even Picard, a supporter of the Baku, acknowledges that the planet is in the Federation.

They are doing this as a matter of convenience.
Necessity really. The Federation had formed a partnership with the Sona, and the Sona were dying, so there was a time constraint.


Last edited by T'Girl; September 28 2013 at 11:56 AM.
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Old September 28 2013, 03:27 PM   #39
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Re: The Son'a

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hate to tell it to you but the whole Baku rejection of technology and the "when you build a machine you take something from the man" is nonsense. Go back and look at their village again.

Irrigated fields with gates, dams, tools, metal forges, carts, spinning wheels, that's all technology and/or machines. To say nothing of the rock quarry and mines they had to have to get all that metal and stone. Maybe not advanced technology or machines, but they still had it.

Not to mention as clean as that freaking place was they either had to have vacuum cleaners stashed away some place or be scrubbing and sweeping for hours a day. Which I guess would explain why they apprenticed for 30 years if they're spending most of their time keeping the place clean.
Without some technology, they would have to wrestle their food with bare hands and live in nomadic wilderness, according to your definition.

--- Irrigation was first used in 1800 BCE.
--- The first dams were constructed in 3,000 BCE.
--- The Wheel was introduced in the 4,000 BCE.
--- First Copper Mines were in 3,800 BCE
--- The first stone tools, 4,000 BCE

So...not exactly a replicator and a positronic brain. Can they kill en masse with these tools? "Verge of self-annihilation" because of technology. What is happening with people and climate change (not to mention food budgets now?) Co-op farming and cities with areas for farming. Think about it. They cannot do irreparable damage to the world with the tools that they have.
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Old September 28 2013, 03:42 PM   #40
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Re: The Son'a

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Eminent Domain does appply because the planet was never the Baku's. Even Picard, a supporter of the Baku, acknowledges that the planet is in the Federation.
My house is in the United States. It doesn't make it the property of the Federal Government until they seize it. Because it moved over the course of 300 years to Federation hands, that's making my point for me. They have a longer claim on it than the Federation does. This is moving the Native Americans off their lands. They migrated from what is now Asia over Alaska into North America. They were indigenous to the region. Eminent Domain certainly does apply. They are not Federation citizens. They were not consulted about the future of this world, as the two examples you have stated, have been. Without Data going crazy, the Federation would've killed 600 people, asking them to "slowly die." Like the Ba'ku or not, that is what they were being forced to do.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:08 PM   #41
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Re: The Son'a

Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.

Heck, for all we know the Baku looked like and behaved like the Son'a until they found the planet.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:15 PM   #42
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Re: The Son'a

DonIago wrote: View Post
Since the Baku weren't native to the planet, it could be argued that moving them wouldn't be "asking them to "slowly die"", but rather returning them to their original life cycle.
"Who the hell are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people?"
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Old September 28 2013, 04:24 PM   #43
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Re: The Son'a

Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people when there's only 600 of them, which they only found by blind luck?

As was said to Buffy the Vampire Slayer once upon a time, "You're not better than us; you're just luckier than us."
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Old September 28 2013, 04:35 PM   #44
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Re: The Son'a

DonIago wrote: View Post
Who the hell are they to sit on something that could help millions of people
Aw come on. It's not as if the Federation citizens were starving. They fought a war because they kept sending ships into dominion space and got a beating. "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home"
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Old September 28 2013, 04:56 PM   #45
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Re: The Son'a

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Eminent Domain does appply because the planet was never the Baku's. Even Picard, a supporter of the Baku, acknowledges that the planet is in the Federation.
My house is in the United States. It doesn't make it the property of the Federal Government until they seize it. Because it moved over the course of 300 years to Federation hands, that's making my point for me. They have a longer claim on it than the Federation does. This is moving the Native Americans off their lands. They migrated from what is now Asia over Alaska into North America. They were indigenous to the region. Eminent Domain certainly does apply. They are not Federation citizens. They were not consulted about the future of this world, as the two examples you have stated, have been. Without Data going crazy, the Federation would've killed 600 people, asking them to "slowly die." Like the Ba'ku or not, that is what they were being forced to do.

Why do the Baku have more of a claim on it than the Son'a, who WERE ACTUALLY DYING as the story begins? Why would the Federation want to get involved in what was essentially a civil war, while helping the side THAT REFUSED TO HELP OUT THE FEDERATION in any way?!?!?

The Son'a were willing partners of the Federation who were going to share the resource. They were valuable strategic partners during a war, and they had a legit claim on the planet.


The Baku were Luddite pacifists who were offering the Federation NOTHING, and Picard takes their side, turning the Son'a into DOMINION ALLIES


All because Picard is a colossal hypocrite in this movie who wants to get laid.
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