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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old September 27 2013, 07:42 PM   #91
doubleohfive
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

My friend, writer Kay Reindl, wrote a blog piece about Into Darkness, titled The Ego of Entitlement, and hate that the film has been getting and in it, she linked back to someone else's blog wherein that writer ("Dan") tried to offer explanations for some of the things the more vocal (minority of) fans have been kvetching about since the film was released, including the explanations about the Vengeance.

You can read that particular blog entry here. I'd offer to paste the relevant bits here but it really makes much more sense as a theory on the whole if you read the entire thing (don't worry, it's only a few paragraphs.)

Also recommended: Kay's original blog entry, detailing why the majority of the foaming-at-the-mouth idiots decrying how terrible Into Darkness was are in fact just foaming-at-the-mouth idiots: Conflict and Drama for Dummies

Last edited by doubleohfive; September 27 2013 at 08:02 PM.
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Old September 27 2013, 07:52 PM   #92
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Does foaming at the mouth fight foaming at the mouth?
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Old September 27 2013, 08:03 PM   #93
doubleohfive
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Read the article to find out!
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Old September 27 2013, 08:12 PM   #94
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Er, no. It just creates more noise ... or foam, as it were.
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Old September 28 2013, 01:16 AM   #95
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

anh165 wrote: View Post
The Narada's techology origins aside, when it attacked the Kelvin, Nero & his crew as far as they were concerned did not know they were in the 23rd century.

They must have been confident of their vessel's capability to assume the Kelvin is a contemporary starfleet ship and went ahead to attack it.
I'm sure a mining ship has scanners plus a ship the size of the Kelvin in the 24th century would be a scout ship, and nothing too theatening.
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
...replace the NX-01 with the E-E in the shots and it's the exact same feats -- even the phasers look the same! ...
Well, it's easy for me to imagine the Enterprise E in Archer's time would one-shot everything.
...If anything, we barely saw the E-E as a 700 meter swiss-army knife. She was merely just a mobile turret and nothing more, with nothing onscreen to show that she was otherwise. The Enterprise-D and Voyager, on the other hand, were depicted doing many other things than simply shooting stuff.
Your comparing a ship that only had a several hours to show what it can do vs ships that had several seasons to explain. You could assume they didn't downgrade Picard at least.

Last edited by bountifulboxesjeg; September 28 2013 at 01:26 AM.
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Old September 28 2013, 02:18 PM   #96
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Remember "In a mirror, darkly?"

the USS Defiant is taken through to the mirror universe about 100 years in the past and demolishes everything.

And in the mirror universe, starfleet is a military organisation, the NX class is a warship and the defiant crushes it in about 10 seconds

same would apply here, quantum torpedoes would probably one shot the vengance.
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Old September 28 2013, 06:15 PM   #97
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
detailing why the majority of the foaming-at-the-mouth idiots decrying how terrible Into Darkness was are in fact just foaming-at-the-mouth idiots
I alway find it amusing how all the Star Trek series and the first ten movies can be examined in detail and analyzed by their consumers ("the fans"), but for some unknown reason the eleventh and twelfth movies are to be only observed and adored, never commented upon.

Why the special treatment, are they really that fragile?

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Old September 29 2013, 02:12 AM   #98
doubleohfive
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I don't know. Have you read any of the articles Kay has written on the subject? She goes in to extraordinary detail examining why it's not just "observe and adore" with the JJ Abrams films, as well as why fandom (at least the vocal minority of fandom) has gone so absolutely batshit about those two films.
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Old September 29 2013, 02:55 AM   #99
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^That's Pop culture. People will go batshit crazy for anything, good or bad.
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Old September 29 2013, 03:10 AM   #100
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Your friend has a cynical view of fandom, and she obviously feels that the show invested much more in the psychological and emotional development of the characters than it really did.
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Old October 2 2013, 12:01 AM   #101
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Austin 3:16 wrote: View Post
I mean the Enterprise E has quantum torps, but the Vengeance has those badass BFG's.

As you can see in this pic, the Vengeance dwarfs the Enterprise E.

Who would come out on top in a regular battle, in your opinion?
I think the Enterprise E would win. It would blow the Vengeance to pieces while watching outdated weapons fire bounce off the advance shields.
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Old October 2 2013, 08:52 AM   #102
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I don't know. Have you read any of the articles Kay has written on the subject? She goes in to extraordinary detail examining why it's not just "observe and adore" with the JJ Abrams films, as well as why fandom (at least the vocal minority of fandom) has gone so absolutely batshit about those two films.
I read. While she makes some good points, she goes ranty a bit too often and that somewhat undermines her points.
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Old October 2 2013, 05:31 PM   #103
anh165
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Infern0 wrote: View Post

same would apply here, quantum torpedoes would probably one shot the vengance.
I do not understand the facination about quantum torpedoes. They are fired the same way, it tracks and travels at a sub-light speed no different to that of a photon torpedo from the TMP era, which can easily be shot/intercepted by even something as old as the USS Kelvin before it can do any damage.

A borg cube cannot even one-shot a Miranda or Excelsior class ship which are a fraction of the size and power of the Vengeance, what chance will the E-E and her standard vanilla issue weapons have?


100 years between 2 particular eras is not the same as 100 years between 2 eras of separate timelines, especially when the Vengeance is a product of an alternative collection of pre-requisite technology and put together by people who have different ideas to that of the prime time line.
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Old October 2 2013, 06:00 PM   #104
anh165
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Showdown wrote: View Post

I think the Enterprise E would win. It would blow the Vengeance to pieces while watching outdated weapons fire bounce off the advance shields.
I wonder where you get this information from?

The Enterprise E shields did not seem so 'advanced' in Nemesis when a mere section of a romulan vessel's hull struck the E causing damage. It didn't seem so advanced when the Scimitar fired some of her *photon* torpedoes causing a hull breach.

If you watch the way how the Vengence damages the JJ-Enterprise, you can easily see it is far more effective than any photon torpedo.

Show me one example of any 23rd century ship that had significant bulk of its hull desintegrated with mere phaser shots from a 24th century vessel? The only example I can think of is the borg cube in wolf 359 and even then that was sustained fire at a relatively small Excelsior class ship which is one 1/4 the size of the JJ-prise.

Enterprise E = An overrated product of a peaceful starfleet based on old design concepts.
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Old October 2 2013, 06:15 PM   #105
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Dominion and Cardassian weaponry were easily capable of destroying plenty of Excelsior and Miranda-class starships during the war even though their shields were supposedly raised. Though this whole thing is pointless because it purely depends on what the plot demands at the time. With that said, they could always use the Breen energy dissipator on the Vengeance.
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