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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 19 2013, 04:11 PM   #31
Stoo
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Re: Shinzon's motives

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I would have cut Shinzon's creepiness. I just don't think he needed to be totally evil. He could have just captured Picard to take non-death threatening blood transfusions from him. Maybe it would have been better for him to try to destroy Romulus and maybe Picard would seem nobler if he was trying to save the billions on a planet he doesn't really like. Maybe he would sacrifice his only son (and Data to do it).
I dunno about making him Picard's actual son, but I'm in agreement with some of this. I wish they'd made Shinzon a more complex character than ending up Obviously Evil. So while I'd want to keep his conflict and rivalry with Picard, somehow, I'd try and avoid the bit about destroying earth. Have him on some other dark and destructive agenda (maybe against romulus) and Picard trying desperately to pull him away, because Picard knows he must have some goodness inside.
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Old September 19 2013, 04:36 PM   #32
SchwEnt
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Nemesis should have been the TNG crew's ST6, with them and the Romulans finally starting to make proper overtures towards peace.
I guess that's what "Unification" was intended to be.
Just as TUC was about TOS crew finally making peace with the Klingons, "Unification" was TNG's counterpart making peace with the Romulans (of course, failing due to Romulan duplicity and treachery).
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Old September 26 2013, 03:49 AM   #33
Therin of Andor
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The Overlord wrote: View Post
That doesn't make sense, why does he want to defeat Earth at all? To further Romulan interests?
No. As I said, to prove his superiority to his oppressors and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do, over several centuries.
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Old September 26 2013, 05:23 AM   #34
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
That doesn't make sense, why does he want to defeat Earth at all? To further Romulan interests?
No. As I said, to prove his superiority to his oppressors and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do, over several centuries.
1. Why should I care about that, how does this make him an interesting villain, his motives for attacking Earth are so forced, that I find his motives and characterization dull. Destroying Earth to prove he is superior to the Romulans, is frankly a really stupid motive. This motive would sense if he were Romulan, but as a former slave of the Romulans he has no reason to try and impress them.

2. That would further Romulan interests and again, if he hates them why would he care about impressing them? Why do anything to further their interests? Wouldn't killing his oppressors prove his superiority just as well and again from a characterization stand point, it makes more sense that he would want to destroy Romulus rather then Earth, wouldn't he be superior Romulans if he managed to kill them all.

Really having Shinzon try to destory Romulus would have made for a better movie, it would have made the Enterprise crew more heroic if they saved the planet of an enemy, rather then just saving their own home planet again.
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Old September 26 2013, 12:33 PM   #35
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The Overlord wrote: View Post
1. Why should I care about that...?
Well, box office receipts prove you right.

Hey, you asked for our opinions. You asked, "Do you think Nemesis would have been better if Shinzon had better motives?"

No one said you had to like what we came up with. It makes no sense to you, but I was fine with it.

I don't think Sela's plans ("Unification", etc) were all that smart either.

Wouldn't killing his oppressors prove his superiority just as well?
He did. He turned the Senate to ash.
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Old September 26 2013, 08:28 PM   #36
vulcan redshirt
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Assuming Shinzon was telling the truth about his treatment by the Romulans, the psycological effects of that have almost certainly made him (partly) insane, which would allow for some inconsistency of character, and illogical decisions.

WHy the hatred for Picard? - jealousy, that Picard had, in Shinzon's opinion, had a good and easy life (maybe JLP should have told Shinzon about his experinece with the Borg), and also knowing that, if his plan to cripple the Federation was undertaken, leaving JLP alive would be dangerous, as Shinzon would be hunted down until one or other died.

As to not using the Scimitar against Romulus?, he didnt want to just destroy the Romulans, he probably wanted them to feel what he had been through. Start an all out war with the Federation, thereby ensuring the destruction of much of the old guard Romulan fleet, and taking over the RSE completely with a Reman command and military. This would then allow complete subjugation of the Romulan people, probably in preparation to turn them all into slaves, spending their entire lives suffering, rather than just being killed off relatively quickly. Also, Remus looks a barren world, with little liklihood of food production, so to use thalaron on Romulus would make supply and logistics more difficult.

and a small side point, I wonder if the Federation ever found a use for the single Scorpion in their shuttlebay after it was beamed on board the E? Unless there was a deleted scene indicating otherwise, I got the impression the whole ship was beamed aboard, not just Data and Picard.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:49 AM   #37
Khan444
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The problem is that while those would be interesting motivations, at no point in the actual movie is it stated or even vaguely implied that those are Shinzon's motives, so its pure speculation. What we got in the movie is that he wants to destroy Earth for some reason, and hates Picard, for some reason, both of which are never clarified.
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Old September 28 2013, 01:23 PM   #38
Therin of Andor
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Khan444 wrote: View Post
The problem is that while those would be interesting motivations, at no point in the actual movie is it stated or even vaguely implied that those are Shinzon's motives, so its pure speculation. What we got in the movie is that he wants to destroy Earth for some reason, and hates Picard, for some reason, both of which are never clarified.
Some of us got it by ourselves. The clues are right there. Why do some audience members need everything spoonfed to them?

What's wrong with a little speculation after seeing a Trek movie?

"So why do you think Spock needed to rid himself of human emotions"?

"Why was Saavik crying at Spock's funeral?"

"Where was Amanda during Spock's fal tor pan?"

"What was the Probe asking the whales"?

"What does God need with a starship?" (Well, okay, that one was asked in the film. How about, do you think he was a rogue Cytherian?")

"Why does Kirk suddenly hate Klingons when he happily hosted some in ST V"?

And so on...
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Old September 29 2013, 08:16 PM   #39
Khan444
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Re: Shinzon's motives

No, don't you dare go there. I hate it when people who want SOME answers are accused of wanting things "spoon-fed" to them. That's bull and the height of condescension. There is NOTHING in the movie to indicate that. Nothing that anyone says, does, or acts like indicates that is what Shinzon's motivation was. You may BELIEVE that those were his motivation, buts its merely your opinion. In fact, everything in the movie would seem to contradict that. There is evidence in all the other movies for the other things you mentioned.
1. Spock is half-Vulcan and wants to embrace their logical ways, but can't quite let go of his human-half.
2. Saavik was Spock's prized student and he was her mentor, she cared about him. Of course she was sad when he died.
3. The probe was a plot device.
and so on.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:21 PM   #40
Therin of Andor
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Khan444 wrote: View Post
its merely your opinion.
As in my sig. Every post. Spoonfed.
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Old September 29 2013, 11:59 PM   #41
The Overlord
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
The problem is that while those would be interesting motivations, at no point in the actual movie is it stated or even vaguely implied that those are Shinzon's motives, so its pure speculation. What we got in the movie is that he wants to destroy Earth for some reason, and hates Picard, for some reason, both of which are never clarified.
Some of us got it by ourselves. The clues are right there. Why do some audience members need everything spoonfed to them?

What's wrong with a little speculation after seeing a Trek movie?

"So why do you think Spock needed to rid himself of human emotions"?

"Why was Saavik crying at Spock's funeral?"

"Where was Amanda during Spock's fal tor pan?"

"What was the Probe asking the whales"?

"What does God need with a starship?" (Well, okay, that one was asked in the film. How about, do you think he was a rogue Cytherian?")

"Why does Kirk suddenly hate Klingons when he happily hosted some in ST V"?

And so on...
See the problem with that is, Shinzon was supposed to be Picard's Khan and Khan had for more straight forward reasons for hating Kirk compared to the reasons for Shinzon hating Picard and wanting to destroy Earth.

Khan is a better villain because we have a better understanding of what drives him and why he hates Kirk. Sure Khan's megalomania gives him a warped perspective and lets him ignored his own fault for his situation, but he does have a right to be upset, Kirk didn't check up on him after banishing him to that planet and Khan's wife dying would certainly make bitter towards Kirk. All of that is far more interesting then the convoluted, yet underdeveloped motives Shinzon had in Nemesis. Convoluted story telling is not good story telling.

Last edited by The Overlord; September 30 2013 at 04:11 AM.
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Old September 30 2013, 02:32 AM   #42
Therin of Andor
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The Overlord wrote: View Post
See the problem with that is, Shinzon was supposed to be Picard's Khan.
Where in the movie does it explain that?

Convoluted story telling is not good story telling
"Nemesis" is certainly not my favourite Trek movie, but I have more issues with the directing than I do with the script.

Data was my favourite character; I should have been an emotional wreck at his passing.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:27 AM   #43
The Overlord
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
See the problem with that is, Shinzon was supposed to be Picard's Khan.
Where in the movie does it explain that?


Well if we want to read between the lines and not have everything spoon fed to us, most of the movie apes Wrath of Khan, the movie makers said this was supposed to be the TNG Wrath of Khan, so it makes sense that Shinzon is supposed to be Khan in this story.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Convoluted story telling is not good story telling
"Nemesis" is certainly not my favourite Trek movie, but I have more issues with the directing than I do with the script.

Data was my favourite character; I should have been an emotional wreck at his passing.
Well we have to agree to disagree, because I did think this movie had a lot of script problems.

Another problem is, Shinzon is supposed be an evil version of Picard, but he doesn't feel like that. An evil version of Picard wouldn't destroy Earth, he would gain nothing from that, but an evil version of Picard could destroy Romulus, because the Romulans have been a threat in the past and an evil Picard could use that as an excuse to justify genocide. There would be a method to the madness of an evil Picard, there would be a sinister logic behind his actions, Shinzon's actions don't seem to reflect the type of man an evil Picard would be.

So having Shinzon threaten Romulus instead of Earth makes for a better thematic story, Shinzon is doing something an evil Picard would do and makes Picard have to save one of the Federation's most dangerous enemies in the process. That is more interesting than what we got in Nemesis.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:47 AM   #44
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Re: Shinzon's motives

^^ I agree, far more interesting.
Although the story might be a hard sell to some.

V/O ANNOUNCER: Watch as Picard actually defends The Federation's most secretive enemy... the ROMULANS.
JOE SIX PACK: Romul-whose? I wanna see Picard save the Earth again. Because that's where I live dangnabbit, on EARTH. Yee-haw!
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Old September 30 2013, 05:06 AM   #45
The Overlord
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Re: Shinzon's motives

billcosby wrote: View Post
^^ I agree, far more interesting.
Although the story might be a hard sell to some.

V/O ANNOUNCER: Watch as Picard actually defends The Federation's most secretive enemy... the ROMULANS.
JOE SIX PACK: Romul-whose? I wanna see Picard save the Earth again. Because that's where I live dangnabbit, on EARTH. Yee-haw!
I don't know, in Thor the climax of the movie was Thor stopping Loki from destroying the ice giant race, I'm not sure how many people disliked that movie because Loki was threatening the ice giants rather then Asgard or Earth.

A good writer could make people care about Romulus and root for Picard to stop Shinzon.
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