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Old September 27 2013, 06:26 PM   #76
R. Star
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Well you can't put too much stock into the History channel these days when one of their few active shows that isn't reality tv based is about aliens coming to Earth and interacting with the primitives.

I watched a couple of episodes of Life After People and it was interesting. The only thing I shrugged at is anything big enough to wipe all of us out is probably going to level any structures we have anyways. That doesn't mean that all -evidence- that we were here is going to be gone.

Yes pavonis, we all know the difference between bones and fossils. You don't need to nitpick pointing it out when we use the terms interchangeably considering the topic of discussion.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:58 PM   #77
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

The History Channel in Canada offers better (more intelligent) programming than the one in the U.S.
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Old September 27 2013, 07:59 PM   #78
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

I like the history channels that play really old TV like Three's Company.
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Old September 28 2013, 02:44 AM   #79
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well you can't put too much stock into the History channel these days....
Of course not, but I have no idea what else Tiberius may have access to. Perhaps a library? Do people (other than me) still carry library cards?

Yes pavonis, we all know the difference between bones and fossils. You don't need to nitpick pointing it out when we use the terms interchangeably considering the topic of discussion.
Do "we"? Because calling a fossil "bone" is like calling petrified wood "a tree". They're not the same thing, and being incredulous that "bones" survived millions of years isn't a sign of understanding the situation. Rocks and minerals survive millions of years; bones survive only thousands of years, unless they get fossilized. There's a fundamental difference between "fossil" and "bone", and using the words interchangeably is sloppy communication.
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Old September 28 2013, 03:07 AM   #80
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Wow, you're just determined to nitpick this issue.
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Old September 28 2013, 03:40 AM   #81
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
That's not what I am saying. I am saying that traces of human civilisation will last. I've never been under the impression that buildings will survive much as they are today.
You thought the Chernobyl sarcophagus would be intact in 50 million years. You've never made it clear to me what you think you mean by "traces of human civilizations". I'm thinking maybe a trace element enrichment in some rocks; are you thinking an entire concrete sarcophagus or a stump of the pyramids will be around in 50 million years? Our definitions of "trace" may be very different.
Woah, hold your rockets there, Captain Eager. Where did I ever say that the sarcophagus would last 50 million years intact? Once again, you show that you are perfectly happy to assume what I am saying instead of reading what I actually say. Congratulations, you've successfully killed the strawman.

There are plenty of environments that could protect it. We've seen these sort of environments protect human remains. My point was that the same luck that protected dinosaur eggshells for millions of years could also protect traces of our civilisation.
Human remains and metals don't react to the same environment in the same way.
Well, the whole oxydization process would seem to me to require oxygen. Peat bogs have been shown to preserve corpses excellently. Of course, it's another matter regarding how long the bog lasts.

Wrong. You're off by orders-of-magnitude.
Yeah, Id guess that a small, extremely fragile eggshell that has had nothing done at all to protect it is much LESS likely to survive.

Why would Voth necessarily build skyscrapers? You don't need a skyscraper to launch rockets into orbit.
But we've seen that a civilization that has advanced to the level where it can build rockets has also developed to the point where it can build sky scrapers.

Of course I'm making assumptions. Are assumptions bad? No, as long as they're clearly laid out. So, I apologize for not clearly stating that I assume an intelligent, tool-using civilization would have culture.
I know, I was being a bit overly picky about that, wasn't I? Just playing devil's advocate.

Yes, I am. If I weren't, I wouldn't do you the courtesy of responding. Are you making yourself clear? I'm very intelligent. If you're not making yourself clear, the failure of communication is on you, not me.
Well, the only reason I ask is that you seem to be responding to points that I haven't been making.

Arm-waving. Nothing to see here but pointless arm-waving.
Would you care to explain WHY? Because I tend to think that evidence that a bone made a recovery that could only happen with help from advanced technology is evidence that the individual was treated with advanced technology. Do you think differently?

That many? I'm impressed! But you shouldn't brag - it's not polite.
Because you've been nothing but polite, have you?

What evidence would you like? I'm not interested in digging through the relevant scientific research literature to post research articles that would be above your head anyway, particularly since I doubt you'd read them. Even if you would read them and understand them, it's far more work than I have time to do. You've not made clear to me what you would consider "evidence" anyway, and I did implicitly ask earlier in the thread. Let me know what you think would constitute evidence and I'll maybe see what I can do. No promises.
What would I count as evidence?

Imagine that alien scientists came to Earth in 50 million years. What could they find they would give them cause to think, "About 50 million years ago, there was a technologically advanced civilization that spread across most of this planet." What would give them cause to think that? That is what I would consider evidence.

Secondly, that you do not read what I say, because i never once claimed that buildings will survive intact. My claim has always been that some trace of modern civilisation will survive. You are the one that leaped to the conclusion that I meant a rusty car being dug up in 60 million years or something.
Don't accuse me of not reading. If I didn't read your posts, I'd not bother responding to them. If you're not making yourself clear to me, then perhaps you need to communicate better. Your "Chernobyl sarcophagus" question, and subsequent incredulity that it would not be intact in the far future, made it seem to me that you thought it would last 50 million years. It won't.
If you somehow concluded that I meant buildings would survive intact when I never said anything of the sort, then you obviously can't comprehend things very well. Don't blame me for implying when it is you making inferences.

Besides, you've posted earlier

Tiberius wrote: View Post
If you'd read the meaning of my post, you will discover that I meant that it is almost impossible that there will come a day when human bones are the only evidence left of human civilisation. We have created structures designed to last for a very long time. The pyramids, the Great Wall of China. they may not survive in a form we can recognise, but an investigation will reveal non-natural origins. Other examples could include the vast road networks across many countires, or the foundations built to support the many absolutely huge buildings that we have constructed. Also dams. Even if they are reduced to apparent rocks, an investigation will show that they are very unusual rocks.

The fact is that any space faring culture will leave behind evidence of that culture in some form.
Have we really designed anything to last a "really long time"? What structures would those be? And what is a "really long time" to you?
See those parts I highlighted?

How you can read that and then conclude that I meant that buildings will remain intact over millions of years is absolutely beyind me. So, I conclude that you read what you THINK I am writing and reply to what you THINK I said.

The pyramids, the Great Wall, dams, building foundations, none will survive intact or even recognizable over millions and millions of years. How could they? What would make them special enough to last? The pyramids and the Great Wall are just rocks, and if whole mountains can erode over millions of years, what's going to leave those intact?
Your argument that "They're just rocks and they'll erode" would be a lot more convincing if we didn't have any rocks older than 50 million years. And don't tell me that those are igneous rocks. We have plenty of sedimentary rocks that are older than 50 million years too. After all, we only ever find fossils in sedimentary rocks.

And what would be a recognizable trace of them? How would someone tell a rock from the eroded pyramids from a rock that was never part of the pyramids? Why should building foundations be preserved when even things underground are subject to geological processes that will destroy them?
You seem to be going from the assumption that ALL things underground are subject to things that will destroy them. This is not true. Traces that are left of the pyramids could be the large flat areas of rock that they are built on showing signs of having a large, square-based object on top of them, that, when viewed in relation to the path of the nearby river (yes, rivers leave traces, it's how we get dinosaur footprints, so don't tell me it doesn't happen), match up to the position of the stars in Orion's belt in relation to the Milky Way. And don't start on how the stars will be in different positions in 50 million years. Any alien scientists who come along in 50 million years will certainly be able to piece together what position the stars were in.

Ponder those questions, and consider what assumptions you're making.
And you do the same.
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Old September 28 2013, 04:47 AM   #82
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Ned Flanders blocked 229 of the possible subscribable 230 channels from his provider.

There are ten thousand members on this board.

Has anyone used the ignore function on at least a thousand of our friends?
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Old September 28 2013, 05:22 AM   #83
Pavonis
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Woah, hold your rockets there, Captain Eager. Where did I ever say that the sarcophagus would last 50 million years intact?
Your previous question

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?
implied to me that you expected it to be intact. If you understood that it would be eroded to nothing, then why did you ask?

Yeah, Id guess that a small, extremely fragile eggshell that has had nothing done at all to protect it is much LESS likely to survive.
Not nothing, just incredible luck that it managed to be protected by the right circumstances. How many eggs do you figure were ever laid across the entire Mesozoic? Over the 187 million years of the Mesozoic, how many eggs existed? How many were preserved up to now? Do we have the same numbers of anything to match the long odds of lucky preservation?

But we've seen that a civilization that has advanced to the level where it can build rockets has also developed to the point where it can build sky scrapers.
One data point is not a trend, though.

Because you've been nothing but polite, have you?
Honestly, I was completely polite until #65. Your posting style indicated increased frustration and contempt for what I was writing. This field is my job and if you're not going to believe me, what can I do? I just don't have the time to devote to a thorough literature search on this subject for you, and even if I did, why should I do it? You're already acting like you know everything, and for all I know, you do know everything. I'm just a geophysics professor, so what would I know about this subject? Maybe you're Don Anderson in real life, which means I should be taking notes on this subject from you, but you don't even have the courtesy to share a little info in your profile. I can't tell if you flip burgers for a living, or if you're Stephen fucking Hawking.
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Old September 28 2013, 09:24 AM   #84
Tiberius
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Woah, hold your rockets there, Captain Eager. Where did I ever say that the sarcophagus would last 50 million years intact?
Your previous question

Tiberius wrote: View Post
And what about the big ass concrete casket they have used to seal the thing off?
implied to me that you expected it to be intact. If you understood that it would be eroded to nothing, then why did you ask?
Are you naturally this pigheaded or do you work at it? What on earth gives you the idea that it must be either intact or eroded to nothing? I said that some trace of it could remain. That is all. It may be nothing more than some rocks that are only found in this one small area and bear signs of having been exposed to something highly radioactive.

Stop inferring.

Not nothing, just incredible luck that it managed to be protected by the right circumstances. How many eggs do you figure were ever laid across the entire Mesozoic? Over the 187 million years of the Mesozoic, how many eggs existed? How many were preserved up to now? Do we have the same numbers of anything to match the long odds of lucky preservation?
Humans are notorious for making things in astronomical quantities. Why should this same luck that let eggshells survive not also act on the huge numbers of things that Humans produce?

But we've seen that a civilization that has advanced to the level where it can build rockets has also developed to the point where it can build sky scrapers.
One data point is not a trend, though.
The same thing applies to lots of things. My point is that a civilisation that has progressed to the point where it can venture out into space has also made a huge number of other technological acheivements.

Anyway, let me ask you a questiopn...

If you could come back to this planet in 50 million years, would you expect that every single trace of human civilization, no matter how small, no matter how insignificant, would have been completely wiped out?
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Old September 29 2013, 07:52 AM   #85
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Are you naturally this pigheaded or do you work at it? What on earth gives you the idea that it must be either intact or eroded to nothing?
Because it wasn't designed to last 50 million years. Do you think the engineers were interested in designing it to last that long - without maintenance? Entire continents MOVE in 50 million years. Whole mountain ranges will erode away in 50 million years. What's so special about a lump of concrete? The freeze-thaw cycles alone would break it down over a few hundred years, and the rest of the environment will reduce it to pebbles or smaller over the remaining time. Even the radioactivity at Chernobyl will subside over merely thousands of years. So what could be left after 50 million years? Nothing.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
I said that some trace of it could remain. That is all. It may be nothing more than some rocks that are only found in this one small area and bear signs of having been exposed to something highly radioactive.
Incredibly unlikely. "Only in this one small area"? You're assuming that the material won't be redistributed? "Signs of exposure to radioactivity"? Like what - fission tracks in the crystals? Those occur naturally anyway. You throw out these half-baked ideas that "some evidence" would remain, yet you clearly have no idea what that evidence would be, but still have the gall to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Humans are notorious for making things in astronomical quantities.
Such as? Toothpicks? Tissue paper?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Anyway, let me ask you a question...

If you could come back to this planet in 50 million years, would you expect that every single trace of human civilization, no matter how small, no matter how insignificant, would have been completely wiped out?
Yes.
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Old September 30 2013, 01:56 PM   #86
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Ok so, fossils survive because they're actually rocks. And we notice them because they're shaped like bits of animal.

So, what do we make, out of rock, that could survive and be unearthed in 50 million years, in a noticeable form. Any large structures will be long gone. But could bits of rubble be identified? Statues, carvings etc?
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Old September 30 2013, 07:06 PM   #87
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

What about radioactive waste?

Plutonium has a half life of 80 million years, and although it is found sparingly in nature, a massive clott from a war, accident or commercial venture would look suspicious.

Oh, and there's three hundred (useful) isotopes discovered so far that can only be made in a reactor, that should not be present near dinosaur fossils.

It's also possible that seemingly naturally found radioactive elements, do need to be made in a reactor too, but they are just leftover remnants of the Voth culture and wwejust figured wrong that they are naturally forming.

Which means that our leap into atomic technology was a million times easier than the Voth's who had a smaller table of elements to work with before they started smashing atoms.
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Old September 30 2013, 07:20 PM   #88
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Wow, you're just determined to nitpick this issue.
this is a topic about Voyager, of course it will be nitpicked
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Old September 30 2013, 07:46 PM   #89
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Good Lord!

In this day and age there is very effective medicated shampoo that can resolve these issues completely.
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