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Old September 23 2013, 02:40 PM   #76
anh165
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
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If you observe the Vengeance on screen you can clearly see the damage it can inflict on a fully shielded federation ship with just a handful of phaser pulses
A case of having a century year old ship, firing upon another century old ship.
It did more than just fire at it, it disintegrated large chunks of the Enterprise's hull with ease while it was fully shielded.

That was just with the Vengeance's standard phasers.
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Old September 23 2013, 02:47 PM   #77
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

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The E should theoretically win, if technological patterns are consistent.

In TNG's "The Emissary" when the D had to deal with an 80-year-old Klingon K'tinga battler cruiser, the concern was never that the ship would harm the Enterprise; indeed, the shots the Klingons did score were described as causing no damage. It was never questioned that the Enterprise could handily destroy the Klingon ship, Picard simply didn't want to have to.

Given the size difference in the Abramsverse, though, one might surmise that technology is proportionally more advanced. OTOH, it might be that Starfleet could always have built such large vessels if they wanted to.
Considering the time line alteration of the destruction of vulcan, reverse engineering the data from the Narada, the difference in political direction Starfleet has taken, involving Khan in the design on ships and weapons, I will go out on a limb that the technlogical patterns will be shifted and not at all relative to what TNG fans see from the Enterprise E.

I remember the Klingon battle cruiser firing on the Enterprise D, to be fair even in its day it would not be much of a threat to the TOS Connie class unless they arrived in packs of 3 which we saw in TOS.

Its not unreasonable to believe the Vengeance could virtually one shot a D7/K'Tinga.
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Old September 23 2013, 04:52 PM   #78
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I would think that any vessel based on the Narada could only be as powerful and battleworthy as a non-military vessel of the 24th century. The Narada may have had features that allowed in to be used in a combat capacity, but that's not the same thing as something designed with combat in mind, even the Enterprise D.
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Old September 23 2013, 05:09 PM   #79
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Well, if we accept that the Narada also made use of Borg tech, then maybe not.

Borg tech is obviously the fairy dust that explains the entire Abramsverse.
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Old September 23 2013, 05:21 PM   #80
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Voyager wasn't immune to that fairy dust either.
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Old September 23 2013, 06:08 PM   #81
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Aye, that they weren't.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:39 AM   #82
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Enterprise E would win. It would beat the Narada as easily as the Narada beat everything in the reboot. Even if the Vengeance somehow managed to surpass the Narada's weapons and armor, the E's tech could scan and defeat the Vengeance without firing a shot, exploiting some flaw, not to mention regenerative shielding, quantum torpedoes, or the ability to travel faster. If all else fails, the E would warp away, find a weakness within their scans (and find an ailment for the crewman on deck twos stomach ache), and tear the Vengeance apart with a modified system. Technology wins in this fight.
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Old September 24 2013, 11:16 AM   #83
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

^They win with technobabble, just like every other time
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Old September 24 2013, 01:04 PM   #84
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I guess I need to buy an oil tanker, put a few rockets, torpedoes and sonars on it, and travel back a 100 years in time. Boy that'll revolutionize the navy.
100 years takes you to 1913, where torpedoes and long-range gunnery were fairly common. Assuming the ship can maintain range (i.e. has manoeverability and can manage about 20-25 knots) and was armed with Harpoons, then you could easily take out the whole US Navy of the time.

Take a motor boat with a 20mm cannon back to 1805 and you could sink Nelson's entire fleet single-handed!
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Old September 27 2013, 12:45 AM   #85
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^They win with technobabble, just like every other time
Depolarize the quantum matrix and generate a tachyon field from the lateral relays, and I mean now. Make it so.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:43 PM   #86
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, if we accept that the Narada also made use of Borg tech, then maybe not.

Borg tech is obviously the fairy dust that explains the entire Abramsverse.
The Narada's techology origins aside, when it attacked the Kelvin, Nero & his crew as far as they were concerned did not know they were in the 23rd century.

They must have been confident of their vessel's capability to assume the Kelvin is a contemporary starfleet ship and went ahead to attack it.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:49 PM   #87
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

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The Enterprise E would win. It would beat the Narada as easily as the Narada beat everything in the reboot. Even if the Vengeance somehow managed to surpass the Narada's weapons and armor, the E's tech could scan and defeat the Vengeance without firing a shot, exploiting some flaw, not to mention regenerative shielding, quantum torpedoes, or the ability to travel faster. If all else fails, the E would warp away, find a weakness within their scans (and find an ailment for the crewman on deck twos stomach ache), and tear the Vengeance apart with a modified system. Technology wins in this fight.
With all the so-called advancements fans claim in the late 24th century, the Enterprise E is a huge disapointment IMO.

It doesn't do anything that the TOS Enterprise cannot do, other than fire quantum torpedoes which are hardly an improvement over photon torpedoes (they both can be easily evaded or shot!)

I don't recall the Enterprise E being able to defeat anything without help or sacrificing a warp core or a crew member.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:38 PM   #88
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Not completely a fair assessment. TOS Enterprise (and the A) had 79 episodes and 6 movies for us to learn what she and her sister types cold do. The Galaxy Class had 7 seasons and 1 movie, plus guest appearances on DS-9. In contrast, the Sovereign Class only had 3 movies. In one movie, all the action takes place ON the Enterprise and, in Insurrection we really don't see much ship-to-ship combat.

I think the Sovereign Class got short-changed for sake of the plot.
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Old September 27 2013, 06:42 PM   #89
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

anh165 wrote: View Post
It doesn't do anything that the TOS Enterprise cannot do...
There is a bunch that the E could do that the TOS ship could not.

TOS Enterprise
Warp 5
Four dilithium focused lasers (Four type VI point phaser emitters in refit)
Phaser Force Rating - 2.5 MW
Shield Force Rating - 120.000 MW
Core Storage Capacity - 1.2041 x 106 kiloquads
Processing Speed - 1,047,920 kiloquads/sec

Enterprise E
Warp 9.9
Eighteen type XII phaser arrays
Phaser Force Rating - 7.2 MW per emitter segment
Shield Force Rating - 489,000 MW
Core Storage Capacity - 1.30983 x 1013 kiloquads per core (2)
Processing Speed - 10,070,950 kiloquads/sec
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Old September 27 2013, 07:27 PM   #90
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
It doesn't do anything that the TOS Enterprise cannot do...
There is a bunch that the E could do that the TOS ship could not.

TOS Enterprise
Warp 5
Four dilithium focused lasers (Four type VI point phaser emitters in refit)
Phaser Force Rating - 2.5 MW
Shield Force Rating - 120.000 MW
Core Storage Capacity - 1.2041 x 106 kiloquads
Processing Speed - 1,047,920 kiloquads/sec

Enterprise E
Warp 9.9
Eighteen type XII phaser arrays
Phaser Force Rating - 7.2 MW per emitter segment
Shield Force Rating - 489,000 MW
Core Storage Capacity - 1.30983 x 1013 kiloquads per core (2)
Processing Speed - 10,070,950 kiloquads/sec
Err, and we got all that just from watching a couple scenes for each of the E-E's movies? How does one judge scale? To make those determinations, you have to go to secondary material. Nobody watches First Contact and says, "At first glance, it's immediately apparent that the forward phaser array is firing 7.2 MW of phaser fire from each emitter." What you just posted up only emphasizes that the E-E does the same thing as the original, merely with different numbers. Oddly enough, if you take comparable scenes from Enterprise, TOS, and the movies, the weapons do the same thing and blow the same things up -- replace the NX-01 with the E-E in the shots and it's the exact same feats -- even the phasers look the same! Why? Because the weapons and the ships and the attackers and defenders all play the exact same role.

When you get down to the bare bones of it, the E-E fighting style was still essentially shoot phasers, launch torpedoes, let shields get hit. It's the same combat style from TOS, and hardly the kind of battlefield variety you have in even today's military (for today's battleships, firing cannons and missiles at the enemy are only a fraction of its battle capabilities). If anything, we barely saw the E-E as a 700 meter swiss-army knife. She was merely just a mobile turret and nothing more, with nothing onscreen to show that she was otherwise. The Enterprise-D and Voyager, on the other hand, were depicted doing many other things than simply shooting stuff.
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Last edited by Cyke101; September 27 2013 at 07:52 PM.
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