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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 26 2013, 06:21 PM   #91
grendelsbayne
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
3. Cadet to Captain? - True, but it's a super hero origin story. Kirk saved the earth with that crew and that ship and in that logic it works, in the real world..... of course not. As much is Trek is a look at what could be, it is still really, really fake.
Kirk isn't a superhero, and Star Trek has never been a superhero story. And even within the logic of a superhero story, it still doesn't work for me. Especially not since they went out of their way to start Kirk not only as a cadet, but as a cadet on academic suspension.

I almost got hopeful at the beginning of STID that the entire thing was actually intended to be unbelievable, so it could open up some serious story possibilities about Kirk's leadership, but then Pike is murdered and the entire thing is completely forgotten again.
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Old September 26 2013, 06:35 PM   #92
Cinema Geekly
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't know. TOS Kirk and movie Kirk did things that should have got him drummed out of the service multiple times but because he saves the Earth over and over again he gets a slap on the wrist at worst.

Star Trek III is a prime example of this. Even though Kirk was doing what we all knew was best he basically spat in the face of the Federation over the course of two movies. At the end of the day he saved Earth so they just bust him down a rank back to Captain (which is where he wanted to be in the first place).

Secondly Kirk is a super hero if Batman is. Batman doesn't have super powers, he's just a guy....who saves the day ALL THE TIME. Kirk might not have powers or something but at the rate he saves the planet I'm pretty sure he counts.
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Old September 26 2013, 06:56 PM   #93
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Kirk is absolutely a superhero. He always has been.
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Old September 26 2013, 07:15 PM   #94
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Kirk is absolutely a superhero. He always has been.
Yep.
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Old September 26 2013, 07:17 PM   #95
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Same deal with Iron Man, really, though arguably Kirk can do more thanks to future tech. He can certainly travel faster and packs more firepower. He beat death. He's grappled with opponents considerably stronger than him and won. And as was mentioned earlier, he repeatedly saves the planet. He has a suit that readily makes him identifiable as his character.

The thing is, the tropes that we associate with comic heroes apply to both Shatner and Pine Kirks. And why do they have those tropes? Because they tell stories about heroism and optimism with abilities far beyond what we have today (however those abilities are quantified) in order to provide escapist -- but idealistic -- fantasy.

Even if we want to narrow down the route, we'd have to consider that there are spacefaring heroes like Adam Strange and Starlord who are cut from the same fabric of pulp heroes, just like Jim Kirk. Dashing, charming, charismatic, sometimes pragmatic, but ultimately a fearless, peacekeeping explorer. Someone whom the audience strives to be.
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Old September 27 2013, 01:48 AM   #96
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Didn't Sreve Rogers go from recruit to Captain pretty much "overnight" in Captain America: The First Avenger? (In the comics he remained a Private)
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Old September 27 2013, 03:28 AM   #97
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Kirk is absolutely a superhero. He always has been.
The man asked God why he didn't a starship and took a bolt of lightning like it was nothing. He's a superhero.
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Old September 27 2013, 04:51 AM   #98
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
3. Cadet to Captain? - True, but it's a super hero origin story. Kirk saved the earth with that crew and that ship and in that logic it works, in the real world..... of course not. As much is Trek is a look at what could be, it is still really, really fake.
Kirk isn't a superhero, and Star Trek has never been a superhero story. And even within the logic of a superhero story, it still doesn't work for me. Especially not since they went out of their way to start Kirk not only as a cadet, but as a cadet on academic suspension.

I almost got hopeful at the beginning of STID that the entire thing was actually intended to be unbelievable, so it could open up some serious story possibilities about Kirk's leadership, but then Pike is murdered and the entire thing is completely forgotten again.
Must leave this
Up to the
People who
Play and
Entertain us with
Their stories
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Old September 27 2013, 05:08 AM   #99
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

drt wrote: View Post
I'm OK with #7, in TUC we had the moon Praxis explode and the shockwave impacted Excelsior which was light years away, so there's a precedent in the ST-universe for certain types of cosmic events to propogate faster than light.
Oh!

Thank god for that!

Now I can relax!!!


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Old September 27 2013, 05:22 AM   #100
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This begs the question of why the bridge is situated on top of the saucer in the first place.
And this, folks, is how to use the phrase "begs the question." Sorry, I just see it abused so often, when I see it handled the right way, it stands out.

Play on, boys.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:25 AM   #101
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This begs the question of why the bridge is situated on top of the saucer in the first place.
And this, folks, is how to use the phrase "begs the question." Sorry, I just see it abused so often, when I see it handled the right way, it stands out.

Play on, boys.
This begs the question as to why it needed comment...
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Old September 27 2013, 09:23 AM   #102
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Opus wrote: View Post
ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
This begs the question of why the bridge is situated on top of the saucer in the first place.
And this, folks, is how to use the phrase "begs the question." Sorry, I just see it abused so often, when I see it handled the right way, it stands out.

Play on, boys.
This begs the question as to why it needed comment...
And unless I'm missing something, he used the phrase incorrectly, anyway. And so did you.
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Old September 27 2013, 09:47 AM   #103
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

In classical usage "begging the question" (Latin: petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a kind of logical fallacy whereby an argument is assumed to be true without any evidence other than the argument itself. It doesn't mean “to raise the question.” "Beg" doesn't refer to the statement being made, but indicates that the fallacy raises a question.

“Gene must have written that script before he died," begs the question "When else could he have written it?"
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Old September 27 2013, 11:17 AM   #104
grendelsbayne
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Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I don't know. TOS Kirk and movie Kirk did things that should have got him drummed out of the service multiple times but because he saves the Earth over and over again he gets a slap on the wrist at worst.

Star Trek III is a prime example of this. Even though Kirk was doing what we all knew was best he basically spat in the face of the Federation over the course of two movies. At the end of the day he saved Earth so they just bust him down a rank back to Captain (which is where he wanted to be in the first place).
Absolutely, but that's a completely different situation. You're talking about a captain who, at that point, has very successfully commanded the SF flagship for years, and who is already a living legend. And you're talking about leniency in punishment, not extreme generosity in rewards. It's always easy to make excuses for people who've saved your life, but that doesn't mean you automatically assume that their 1 great success is proof positive that you can trust them completely with the most important thing in your possession.

In ST09, Kirk is a not necessarily well liked cadet (it seems like Pike is the only person who sees anything in him at all) who, through breaking a lot of rules, happens to save Earth. Worth a commendation? Certainly. Worth a promotion? No doubt about it whatsoever. Worth instantly putting him in complete control of the most important starship in the fleet when he hasn't even graduated the academy yet? No. Who in their right mind would ever even think of doing that?

Secondly Kirk is a super hero if Batman is. Batman doesn't have super powers, he's just a guy....who saves the day ALL THE TIME. Kirk might not have powers or something but at the rate he saves the planet I'm pretty sure he counts.
Batman does have superpowers. He has all kinds of ridiculous weapons and armor *that no one else has access to*. A superhero stands fully apart from the world he defends, representing something extremely unique, often created as much by pure luck (like inheriting Wayne Enterprises) as by determination. Kirk is just a starship captain, just like any other starship captain. He went through Starfleet Academy and took all the same classes as every other starfleet officer. There is nothing whatsoever to differentiate him from Pike or April or Janeway except for his choices and his character. He becomes a legend because he is extremely successful, even saves a lot of lives (sometimes planets), but that doesn't make him a superhero, just an extremely successful starship captain. (Who incidentally wouldn't be half as successful as he was without his equally impressive crew)

All of which applies even moreso to Iron Man.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Didn't Sreve Rogers go from recruit to Captain pretty much "overnight" in Captain America: The First Avenger? (In the comics he remained a Private)
Calling a man 'Captain America' in order to use him as a propaganda tool is hardly the same as putting him in charge of a battalion with no proof that he has any idea what he's doing. In fact, Tommy Lee Jones - the only military voice in the movie - writes Rogers off from the very beginning, and even after the big rescue (which is months, at least, possibly a year or more after he became Captain America), the only authority Cap is given is over a small team of soldiers brought together to infiltrate Hydra bases - which is, not coincidentally, exactly the one thing which Cap had undeniably proven himself capable of doing.

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Kirk is absolutely a superhero. He always has been.
The man asked God why he didn't a starship and took a bolt of lightning like it was nothing. He's a superhero.
Arguing with energy beings would seem to qualify all Star trek captains and a good number of their crewmembers as well. Sisko punched Q, who might as well be a god as far as such things ever exist within Star Trek. Also, I don't think Kirk was the only star trek character to ever take some kind of energy blast and stay standing. Does that make all of them superheroes?

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 27 2013 at 05:21 PM. Reason: this merge of a Triple Post brought to you by the makers of MULTI-QUOTE™
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Old September 27 2013, 04:31 PM   #105
Nerys Myk
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Didn't Sreve Rogers go from recruit to Captain pretty much "overnight" in Captain America: The First Avenger? (In the comics he remained a Private)
Calling a man 'Captain America' in order to use him as a propaganda tool is hardly the same as putting him in charge of a battalion with no proof that he has any idea what he's doing. In fact, Tommy Lee Jones - the only military voice in the movie - writes Rogers off from the very beginning, and even after the big rescue (which is months, at least, possibly a year or more after he became Captain America), the only authority Cap is given is over a small team of soldiers brought together to infiltrate Hydra bases - which is, not coincidentally, exactly the one thing which Cap had undeniably proven himself capable of doing.
That's nice. Still Rogers went from recruit to an officer holding the rank of Captain without any of the intermediate steps.
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