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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 26 2013, 04:47 PM   #31
BillJ
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
But this adds absolutely nothing to the film and actually bogs it down. Plus, then you'd have people bitching about how starships don't work that way.
Sure it does. It gives the Enterprise a moment where it actually did something to stop the Vengeance.
It really doesn't add anything to the film. I can tell with my eyes that the Enterprise was in no shape to stop it.

I think people confuse what they'd like to see with what would make a good movie. I would've loved to have gotten more in-depth information on the Nibiru mission, seen the arguments, seen the development of the volcano device. But just because those things might be of interest to me personally, doesn't mean that it is good for the film.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:53 PM   #32
JarodRussell
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
That was a big problem. They stop the Enterprise from falling and then they waste 5 minutes to watch Kirk die. In the meantime, the Vengeance falls to Earth as well (and why exactly did it take 10 minutes longer than the Enterprise?), and they do nothing to stop it.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:56 PM   #33
ComicGuy89
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
ComicGuy89 wrote:
To suddenly make it a rescue mission would shift the tone to a more hopeful one and I think this sudden shift would damage the movie
Isn't that what we get in the film anyways? We have a tragic, quiet death of Kirk followed immediately by another action set piece with Spock trying to kill Khan out of vengeance which than turns into a rescue mission to save Kirk. If you think having two shifts in tone is too much, I'll understand that better. But don't say that shifting tone on it's own is a bad thing, because that's exactly what the film did.
When I made the point about the tone, I made sure to add some qualifiers. I never said tone shifting was a bad thing. From my previous post, I said it's tone mismatch that would cause a problem:

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
Like BillJ said, it adds nothing and in my opinion would have caused some sort of tone mismatch. It had been tragic up until now and slowly descending into wrath on part of Spock. To suddenly make it a rescue mission would shift the tone to a more hopeful one and I think this sudden shift would damage the movie.
Yes there was a tone of hope in the climax but that came after the whole issue of Spock going nuts was played out. In my opinion, what you are suggesting is this:

Tragedy (Kirk's death) ---> Hope (Rescue mission) ---> Wrath (Spock's revenge) ---> Hope (Khan's blood)

I think the hopeful tone in the middle with the rescue mission distorts the progression entirely, the audience is yanked from sorrow to hope and suddenly back to anger. Like negative, positive, negative, positive. It's almost bipolar. It will make the rescue mission feel horribly out of place.

What the film ended up doing was:

Tragedy (Kirk's death) ---> Wrath (Spock's revenge) ---> Hope (Khan's blood)

That's far more natural as it descends slowly into darkness before it rises up into a hopeful atmosphere again.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:56 PM   #34
Sindatur
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
That was a big problem. They stop the Enterprise from falling and then they waste 5 minutes to watch Kirk die. In the meantime, the Vengeance falls to Earth as well (and why exactly did it take 10 minutes longer than the Enterprise?), and they do nothing to stop it.
Yea, Sulu and Chekov should've gotten out and pushed, obviously they were just being lazy.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:59 PM   #35
JarodRussell
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
That was a big problem. They stop the Enterprise from falling and then they waste 5 minutes to watch Kirk die. In the meantime, the Vengeance falls to Earth as well (and why exactly did it take 10 minutes longer than the Enterprise?), and they do nothing to stop it.
Yea, Sulu and Chekov should've gotten out and pushed, obviously they were just being lazy.
Because they did nothing, they were also just extremely lucky that the Vengeance didn't crash into them.
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Old September 26 2013, 05:06 PM   #36
ComicGuy89
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
That was a big problem. They stop the Enterprise from falling and then they waste 5 minutes to watch Kirk die. In the meantime, the Vengeance falls to Earth as well (and why exactly did it take 10 minutes longer than the Enterprise?), and they do nothing to stop it.
Are we really nitpicking for the sake of it?

Sulu and the bridge crew simply didn't have the Vengeance on their mind. After all, their (and the audience's) focus had been on the Enterprise desperately trying to survive. And immediately after that, their captain dying.

The fact that you mentioned the Vengeance barely missing the Enterprise showed that nobody remembered it was there. They are only human, even robots like Data wouldn't be able to recover from such a serious incident so quickly, in 5 minutes. Do you know how short 5 minutes is?
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Old September 26 2013, 06:09 PM   #37
Saul
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

I think movies can't be so upbeat with such destruction and obvious loss of life. Clark Kent smiling, Kirk and his crew excited about a new mission. Sure, events have passed but basically our heroes lost.
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Old September 27 2013, 03:49 AM   #38
Khan444
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Superman saved the human race from annihilation and was ready to come out in the open (hence Lois saying "welcome to the planet"). The Enterprise defeated Khan, Admiral Marcus was dead, and there is renewed optimism for the future. How did the heroes lose exactly?
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Old September 27 2013, 04:26 AM   #39
Cadet49
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Superman saved the human race from annihilation and was ready to come out in the open (hence Lois saying "welcome to the planet"). The Enterprise defeated Khan, Admiral Marcus was dead, and there is renewed optimism for the future. How did the heroes lose exactly?
Kirk was the one that led the Vengeance back to Earth, and released Khan from his cell. Kirk's crew got Khan on board a ship he had "inate knowledge of", as Spock said, lining him up to take over the Vengence, which Khan then used to kill thousands of people ... yeah, they prevented Marcus from starting a war with the Klingons, but it was at great cost - I wouldn't call it a victory, and Kirk all excited for his new five year mission at the end of the didn't jive to me, in light of the destruction his enemy had caused - a man he released from a jail cell - most people, no matter if they stopped the "bad guy", would be dealing with the feelings of guilt over the deaths the villain had caused, especially since they had captured him successfully, but then let him go. I would think Kirk would be questioning himself, wondering, "I wonder what would have happened if I had actually just turned Khan over to Marcus - would the admiral maybe have spared my ship, regardless of what he said later, about never planning to spare the Enterprise? Or if I had run to another Federation area, instead of Earth? How many lives on Earth would have been spared, if I had just taken the ship to a starbase instead of Earth? Was trying to save Khan and make sure he faced true and fair justice worth the thousands of innocent lives lost in San Fransisco?". Kirk would likely have had to face these questions, and to explain his reasons for releasing Khan to grieving families who lost family members in those skyscrapers... definitely not a victory for the Enterprise crew, except they did arguably prevent a war with the Klingons ... for now ... but a victory for the Enterprise ... no, I'd say ...

Last edited by Cadet49; September 27 2013 at 04:42 AM.
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Old September 27 2013, 04:43 AM   #40
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Cadet49 wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
Superman saved the human race from annihilation and was ready to come out in the open (hence Lois saying "welcome to the planet"). The Enterprise defeated Khan, Admiral Marcus was dead, and there is renewed optimism for the future. How did the heroes lose exactly?
Kirk was the one that led the Vengeance back to Earth, and released Khan from his cell. Kirk's crew got Khan on board a ship he had "inate knowledge of", as Spock said, lining him up to take over the Vengence, which Khan then used to kill thousands of people ... yeah, they prevented Marcus from starting a war with the Klingons, but it was at great cost - I wouldn't call it a victory, and Kirk all excited for his new five year mission at the end of the didn't jive to me, in light of the destruction his enemy had caused - a man he released from a jail cell - most people, no matter if they stopped the "bad guy", would be dealing with the feelings of guilt over the deaths the villain had caused, especially since they had captured him successfully, but then let him go. I would think Kirk would be questioning himself, wondering, "I wonder what would have happened if I had actually just turned Khan over to Marcus - would he maybe have spared my ship, regardless of what he said later? Or if I had run to another Federation area, instead of Earth? How many lives on Earth would have been spared, if I had just taken the ship to a starbase instead of Earth?". Kirk would likely have had to explain his reasons for releasing Khan to grieving families who lost family members in those skyscrapers... definitely not a victory for the Enterprise crew, and their smiles at the end of the movie don't jive with the tone of the destruction caused ...
Marcus made it clear: He was going to kill the Enterprise crew. So we get:

They hand Khan and the 72 torps over, Marcus kills everyone...

A) He starts a war with the Klingon Empire, costing countless lives--far more than the crash of the Vengeance--and Earth still still ends up on the firing line.

B) Khan kills Marcus, wakes his crew. Now we have a genocidal madman with a super ship that might get stopped but not before he scorches a good bit of the planet and kills God only knows how many Starfleet crew in the process.

Body count still ends up higher. They run to another sector, the above plays out the same.



JarodRussell wrote: View Post
By now, it would be normal to them. 6 billion Vulcans here, 100,000 San Francisconians there, who cares?

As the Joker said, it's all part of the plan.
Not to mention 7 million killed in the Xindi attack on Earth.

If you're going to attack the key world in your story, make it count.
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Old September 27 2013, 05:35 AM   #41
Kabraxal
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

The reason MoS got ripped apart by many, many fans for something similiar is because the character of Superman is someone who has been shown for decades to do everything possible to avoid that kind of casualty, not stupidly add to the problem and not once, NOT ONCE, try to get the hell away from a mass population centre. MoS was a failure of character and that is why, to many fans, it was a failure as a film.

ID didn't suffer that because, as others have pointed out, ToS and every series in general has shown that the crew continues with the mission, then deals with the consequences and emotions after. It fits what has been done before. I would not be surprised if the next movie contained a lot of moments showing characters still dealing with the events that have happened. Even ID showed Spock dealing with what happened in 09.

It's a matter of being true to the franchise.. Star Trek was, in so many ways... MoS was simply a complete betrayal just to have "action".
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Old September 27 2013, 07:40 AM   #42
Khan444
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

First of all, MOS Superman has NO EXPERIENCE whatsoever. He's had no training, had NEVER been in a fight before, and was facing highly trained and battle hardened soldiers with superpowers bent on genocide two days after putting on the costume. I'm sorry, but he's going to make mistakes, that's what inexperience leads to. Arguing that he should instantly make all the right decisions is just ludicrous. Also, saying that he never tried to fly away is a gross simplification. He tries to fly up several times during the Smallville fight (if people had been paying attention, the they would have noticed that, and many did) and each time he gets pulled back down by Zod's forces. He COULDN'T fly away during the Metropolis battle because a. Zod had made it clear that his only goal by that point was to make Clark suffer by exterminating humanity, so if he had flown away, Zod would have killed everyone in the city instead of following him, and b. Zod never gave him the chance to fly away. Also, he surrenders himself twice to two different militaries in order to protect the people, spends years traveling the world helping people, that's how Lois tracked him to Smallville, and killed Zod to protect people. So please, spare me the whole "MOS was a betrayal of the character" speel because I'm not buying it.
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Old September 27 2013, 01:28 PM   #43
Jeyl
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
Do you know how short 5 minutes is?
About the same time it takes the Enterprise under no propulsion to go all the way from the moon to Earth on gravity pull alone?
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Old September 27 2013, 03:02 PM   #44
Saul
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Superman saved the human race from annihilation and was ready to come out in the open (hence Lois saying "welcome to the planet"). The Enterprise defeated Khan, Admiral Marcus was dead, and there is renewed optimism for the future. How did the heroes lose exactly?
So thousands of people die and this is our heroes winning?
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Old September 27 2013, 03:05 PM   #45
BillJ
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Saul wrote: View Post
Khan444 wrote: View Post
Superman saved the human race from annihilation and was ready to come out in the open (hence Lois saying "welcome to the planet"). The Enterprise defeated Khan, Admiral Marcus was dead, and there is renewed optimism for the future. How did the heroes lose exactly?
So thousands of people die and this is our heroes winning?
If the alternative is millions dying in a war? Then I'd say yes.
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