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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old September 26 2013, 03:20 AM   #556
SolitaryJustice
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Battlestar Galactica wasn't cancelled. Here's a list of awards and nominations it won in its 4 seasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...star_Galactica

...with all due respect, Madam Vice Admiral.
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Old September 26 2013, 09:46 AM   #557
Belz...
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Lord of the Rings gave such a backstory exposition at the very beginning, and nobody complained about being "confused" by so much backstory.
No but plenty of LOTR fans complained that it wasn't the "prime" timeline.
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Old September 26 2013, 11:24 AM   #558
JarodRussell
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

SolitaryJustice wrote: View Post
Battlestar Galactica wasn't cancelled. Here's a list of awards and nominations it won in its 4 seasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...star_Galactica

...with all due respect, Madam Vice Admiral.
Awards are not ratings.
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Old September 26 2013, 12:14 PM   #559
Yanks
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
SolitaryJustice wrote: View Post
Enterprise ... It could have been an awesome show, but it wasn't BattleStar was, and they didn't change the name at all.
Ummm, both shows ran for four season, and both were removed from the air owing to their poor ratings.

Correct. The so called "hearlded" BSG actually got worse ratings than Enterprise did.
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Old September 26 2013, 12:41 PM   #560
Sindatur
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

SolitaryJustice wrote: View Post
Battlestar Galactica wasn't cancelled. Here's a list of awards and nominations it won in its 4 seasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...star_Galactica

...with all due respect, Madam Vice Admiral.
As I mentioned before (Maybe in a different thread?), yes, it did get critical acclaim and got awards, but ratings sank and it did indeed get cancelled. The awards and critical praise is what allowed it to last as long as it did, because SyFy hoped those awards and critical acclaim would gain it ratings and "up" their brand image, but, despite the awards and praise, they finally had to cut it loose due to ratings that were too low for too long. If it didn't get that praise and awards, it would've been cancelled sooner
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Old September 26 2013, 04:25 PM   #561
Yanks
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
SolitaryJustice wrote: View Post
Battlestar Galactica wasn't cancelled. Here's a list of awards and nominations it won in its 4 seasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...star_Galactica

...with all due respect, Madam Vice Admiral.
As I mentioned before (Maybe in a different thread?), yes, it did get critical acclaim and got awards, but ratings sank and it did indeed get cancelled. The awards and critical praise is what allowed it to last as long as it did, because SyFy hoped those awards and critical acclaim would gain it ratings and "up" their brand image, but, despite the awards and praise, they finally had to cut it loose due to ratings that were too low for too long. If it didn't get that praise and awards, it would've been cancelled sooner
It never seems to work. In this business once you've "lost'em", they are gone.

The same for Enterprise season 4. Most agree it's the best season of Enterprise and one of the best trek seasons. But the numbers didn't come back at all.
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Old September 26 2013, 05:49 PM   #562
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Belz... wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Lord of the Rings gave such a backstory exposition at the very beginning, and nobody complained about being "confused" by so much backstory.
No but plenty of LOTR fans complained that it wasn't the "prime" timeline.
And again, you wound up with fans who wanted an exact, word-for-word duplication of the novels and fans who wanted an extreme, radical reinterpretation like John Boorman's failed LoTR movie pitch because both sides felt Jackson's moderate changes and edits were insulting to the material. Some even threw their support behind Ralph Bakshi's animated version, which kept the book's dialogue verbatim but chopped the story into incomprehensibility.

Listening to fans' desires in any case is a recipe for disaster.
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Old September 26 2013, 05:58 PM   #563
David.Blue
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

It isn't that simple. BSG brought in enough ratings that with the prestige it lasted four years and spawned two spinoffs (don't count on none others). DW went its own way yet listened to the fans, but listened rather than slavishly obeyed. Ditto LOTR.

And no matter what anyone does, somebody will complain. So what? When did everybody among the fans of a franchise like all the entries in it? Good God, even folks who adore The Hunger Games, half of them hate the third book!
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Old September 26 2013, 06:30 PM   #564
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

David.Blue wrote: View Post
It isn't that simple. BSG brought in enough ratings that with the prestige it lasted four years and spawned two spinoffs (don't count on none others). DW went its own way yet listened to the fans, but listened rather than slavishly obeyed. Ditto LOTR.

And no matter what anyone does, somebody will complain. So what? When did everybody among the fans of a franchise like all the entries in it? Good God, even folks who adore The Hunger Games, half of them hate the third book!
And fans of Diana Gabaldon's bestselling "Outlander" novels are already in an uproar over the casting of the upcoming TV show. And the "Fifty Shades of Gray" fans are in an uproar over the casting of the movie, which hasn't even started filming yet. And I keep running into comic fans who are upset because Ant-Man isn't in the Avengers movies--because he was in the original comics, damnit!

Not sure when we decided that film-making was a democratic process, to be decided by fan polls and petitions? Or that reboots and adaptations had to be 100% faithful to the previous versions?
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Old September 26 2013, 06:37 PM   #565
Sindatur
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
David.Blue wrote: View Post
It isn't that simple. BSG brought in enough ratings that with the prestige it lasted four years and spawned two spinoffs (don't count on none others). DW went its own way yet listened to the fans, but listened rather than slavishly obeyed. Ditto LOTR.

And no matter what anyone does, somebody will complain. So what? When did everybody among the fans of a franchise like all the entries in it? Good God, even folks who adore The Hunger Games, half of them hate the third book!
And fans of Diana Gabaldon's bestselling "Outlander" novels are already in an uproar over the casting of the upcoming TV show. And the "Fifty Shades of Gray" fans are in an uproar over the casting of the movie, which hasn't even started filming yet. And I keep running into comic fans who are upset because Ant-Man isn't in the Avengers movies--because he was in the original comics, damnit!

Not sure when we decided that film-making was a democratic process, to be decided by fan polls and petitions? Or that reboots and adaptations had to be 100% faithful to the previous versions?
Now that you understand how the process works, we expect all your future Trek Tie-in Books, that you will post the Spec you are given to write from, so the Trek Fans can guide you to write it properly, and then post your finished product so we can have first crack at editing it, to ensure you did it right
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Old September 26 2013, 07:29 PM   #566
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
David.Blue wrote: View Post
It isn't that simple. BSG brought in enough ratings that with the prestige it lasted four years and spawned two spinoffs (don't count on none others). DW went its own way yet listened to the fans, but listened rather than slavishly obeyed. Ditto LOTR.

And no matter what anyone does, somebody will complain. So what? When did everybody among the fans of a franchise like all the entries in it? Good God, even folks who adore The Hunger Games, half of them hate the third book!
And fans of Diana Gabaldon's bestselling "Outlander" novels are already in an uproar over the casting of the upcoming TV show. And the "Fifty Shades of Gray" fans are in an uproar over the casting of the movie, which hasn't even started filming yet. And I keep running into comic fans who are upset because Ant-Man isn't in the Avengers movies--because he was in the original comics, damnit!

Not sure when we decided that film-making was a democratic process, to be decided by fan polls and petitions? Or that reboots and adaptations had to be 100% faithful to the previous versions?
Now that you understand how the process works, we expect all your future Trek Tie-in Books, that you will post the Spec you are given to write from, so the Trek Fans can guide you to write it properly, and then post your finished product so we can have first crack at editing it, to ensure you did it right
Which will obviously make the process go much more smoothly!

On a more serious note, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the Spec you are given to write from." That's not really how it works. I'm not given a plot outline and asked to write it. It's more like I come up with a proposal/outline which is submitted to the Powers That Be for approval and comments.
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Last edited by Greg Cox; September 26 2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old September 26 2013, 07:34 PM   #567
SeerSGB
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
David.Blue wrote: View Post
It isn't that simple. BSG brought in enough ratings that with the prestige it lasted four years and spawned two spinoffs (don't count on none others). DW went its own way yet listened to the fans, but listened rather than slavishly obeyed. Ditto LOTR.

And no matter what anyone does, somebody will complain. So what? When did everybody among the fans of a franchise like all the entries in it? Good God, even folks who adore The Hunger Games, half of them hate the third book!
And fans of Diana Gabaldon's bestselling "Outlander" novels are already in an uproar over the casting of the upcoming TV show. And the "Fifty Shades of Gray" fans are in an uproar over the casting of the movie, which hasn't even started filming yet. And I keep running into comic fans who are upset because Ant-Man isn't in the Avengers movies--because he was in the original comics, damnit!

Not sure when we decided that film-making was a democratic process, to be decided by fan polls and petitions? Or that reboots and adaptations had to be 100% faithful to the previous versions?
Now that you understand how the process works, we expect all your future Trek Tie-in Books, that you will post the Spec you are given to write from, so the Trek Fans can guide you to write it properly, and then post your finished product so we can have first crack at editing it, to ensure you did it right
If I had a popular book/tv series and the fans got pissy: I'd make a point to torch everything they loved in the series. I'd make it fire, pain, and misery for the fans. And wouldn't stop till they shut the fuck up.

George RR Martin had great quote about it: “Writing is like sausage making in my view; you’ll all be happier in the end if you just eat the final product without knowing what’s gone into it.”

Neil Gaiman has a equally valid POV about the "entitlement" of fans.

Yes, it's unrealistic of you to think George is "letting you down".

Look, this may not be palatable, Gareth, and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

...

You're complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.

No such contract existed. You were paying your ten dollars for the book you were reading, and I assume that you enjoyed it because you want to know what happens next.

And if you are waiting for a new book in a long ongoing series, whether from George or from Pat Rothfuss or from someone else...

Wait. Read the original book again. Read something else. Get on with your life. Hope that the author is writing the book you want to read, and not dying, or something equally as dramatic. And if he paints the house, that's fine.

...

And Gareth, in the future, when you see other people complaining that George R.R. Martin has been spotted doing something other than writing the book they are waiting for, explain to them, more politely than I did the first time, the simple and unanswerable truth: George R. R. Martin is not working for you.
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Old September 26 2013, 07:49 PM   #568
David.Blue
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

To give a specific example...

For over five years I worked on a quite successful online spinoff series from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We won awards, had a loyal audience, even inspired fanfic! We also had our own message board where folks commented on each episode and speculated about things, gave us feedback, etc.

During those five years, we killed off more than one character who had come to be genuinely loved. The fans were shocked. We put them through the wringer more than once.

As one of the writers, I absolutely listened to what the fans had to say. But I didn't simply give them every single thing they wanted. Rather, I gauged how the stories worked and which characters got what reaction. An early episode featured a character we made up--Faith's sister, Hope. Folks said they'd like to see her again someday. About two years later I brought Hope back, featuring her prominently in a season-long arc. Now another original character, Jeff, had started off with folks liking him well enough but then hating him for falling in love with one half of a couple the audience adored. I decided Jeff and Faith would become a couple, which became an integral part not only of that season's arc but the arc in the season after that. All because I listened to the readers.

But I didn't simply give them what they asked for.
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Old September 26 2013, 07:52 PM   #569
SeerSGB
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

David.Blue wrote: View Post
To give a specific example...

For over five years I worked on a quite successful online spinoff series from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We won awards, had a loyal audience, even inspired fanfic! We also had our own message board where folks commented on each episode and speculated about things, gave us feedback, etc.

During those five years, we killed off more than one character who had come to be genuinely loved. The fans were shocked. We put them through the wringer more than once.

As one of the writers, I absolutely listened to what the fans had to say. But I didn't simply give them every single thing they wanted. Rather, I gauged how the stories worked and which characters got what reaction. An early episode featured a character we made up--Faith's sister, Hope. Folks said they'd like to see her again someday. About two years later I brought Hope back, featuring her prominently in a season-long arc. Now another original character, Jeff, had started off with folks liking him well enough but then hating him for falling in love with one half of a couple the audience adored. I decided Jeff and Faith would become a couple, which became an integral part not only of that season's arc but the arc in the season after that. All because I listened to the readers.

But I didn't simply give them what they asked for.
You can not listen to your fans. Every single one of them thinks they know what they want, and they might sound like they agree, but that doesn't make it right for your story or for your franchise.
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Old September 26 2013, 09:24 PM   #570
Hober Mallow
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Yanks wrote: View Post
It never seems to work. In this business once you've "lost'em", they are gone.

The same for Enterprise season 4. Most agree it's the best season of Enterprise and one of the best trek seasons. But the numbers didn't come back at all.
ENT lost me even before the end of the pilot episode.
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