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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 26 2013, 02:28 PM   #16
Hartzilla2007
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I think I'm more annoyed by the fact that the driving force behind Star Trek is now death.
What just because the planets the are attacked or destroyed are ones we care about now instead on the god knows how many one shot planets that were obliterated in TOS that the audience wasn't given much reason to care about other than the scary thing this episode is destructive.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:25 PM   #17
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I think I'm more annoyed by the fact that the driving force behind Star Trek is now death.
Isn't attempting to prevent death the driving force in almost all of Trek?
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Old September 26 2013, 03:26 PM   #18
Jeyl
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I think I'm more annoyed by the fact that the driving force behind Star Trek is now death.
What just because the planets the are attacked or destroyed are ones we care about now instead on the god knows how many one shot planets that were obliterated in TOS that the audience wasn't given much reason to care about other than the scary thing this episode is destructive.
I think I have an idea on how to respond to your post, but I don't want to right now because I might misinterpret what you were trying to say. Could you elaborate your points a more structured manner?
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Old September 26 2013, 03:28 PM   #19
Jeyl
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Isn't attempting to prevent death the driving force in almost all of Trek?
Yeah, and this new take sucks at it. Try to save everyone in the meeting room? Nope. Khan kills a good chunk of them. Try to reason with the Klingons? Nope. Khan starts a fight which leaves all of the Klingons dead. Try to capture Admiral Marcus alive? Nope. Khan brutally kills him. Try to stop the Vengeance from crashing into San Francisco after restoring power to the Enterprise's system? Nope. We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:36 PM   #20
ComicGuy89
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Isn't attempting to prevent death the driving force in almost all of Trek?
Yeah, and this new take sucks at it. Try to save everyone in the meeting room? Nope. Khan kills a good chunk of them. Try to reason with the Klingons? Nope. Khan starts a fight which leaves all of the Klingons dead. Try to capture Admiral Marcus alive? Nope. Khan brutally kills him. Try to stop the Vengeance from crashing into San Francisco after restoring power to the Enterprise's system? Nope. We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
Doesn't this simply show that the stakes are horribly high, and that the Enterprise and her crew are against insurmountable odds?

I really wonder what the Enterprise, even at full power and structural integrity, could do to stop a ship more than 3 times its size from crashing. No tractor beam could haul the Vengeance in. And the Enterprise was already severely battered, it's unfair to say the crew just sat there when minutes ago they weren't sure if they were going to live.

I think above the others, this jab against the Enterprise not trying to prevent the Vengeance from crashing is ridiculous and unfair.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:41 PM   #21
Chemahkuu
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

TOS had planetary populations wiped out like flies, 10 of billions of sentient beings over the course of it, crewmen/women dying every episode, a lot of the plots revolving around loss of life. It was a damned depressing series for it and has the highest death toll of all Trek.

So if Into Darkness simply 'sucks' at it, TOS fails spectacularly.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:44 PM   #22
Hartzilla2007
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I think I'm more annoyed by the fact that the driving force behind Star Trek is now death.
What just because the planets the are attacked or destroyed are ones we care about now instead on the god knows how many one shot planets that were obliterated in TOS that the audience wasn't given much reason to care about other than the scary thing this episode is destructive.
I think I have an idea on how to respond to your post, but I don't want to right now because I might misinterpret what you were trying to say. Could you elaborate your points a more structured manner?
In TOS when ever a big scary monster like thing be it a doomsday machine, a giant amoeba, a pissed off NASA probe, or whatever shows up they show how badass it is by having it destroyed a space station, starship, or planet much like goes on in JJtrek.

The only difference is that this time instead of using oneshot planets nobody gives a crap about (seeing as I haven't heard any complaints about using time travel to save them or how the crew sucks for failing to save them) Abrams an co. used planets and places people actually give a crap about.

So really their not doing anything different this time, its just that people care about the places being destroyed.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:46 PM   #23
ComicGuy89
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

What just because the planets the are attacked or destroyed are ones we care about now instead on the god knows how many one shot planets that were obliterated in TOS that the audience wasn't given much reason to care about other than the scary thing this episode is destructive.
I think I have an idea on how to respond to your post, but I don't want to right now because I might misinterpret what you were trying to say. Could you elaborate your points a more structured manner?
In TOS when ever a big scary monster like thing be it a doomsday machine, a giant amoeba, a pissed off NASA probe, or whatever shows up they show how badass it is by having it destroyed a space station, starship, or planet much like goes on in JJtrek.

The only difference is that this time instead of using oneshot planets nobody gives a crap about (seeing as I haven't heard any complaints about using time travel to save them or how the crew sucks for failing to save them) Abrams an co. used planets and places people actually give a crap about.

So really their not doing anything different this time, its just that people care about the places being destroyed.
And also, with a higher budget, the destruction is shown more graphically.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:50 PM   #24
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Isn't attempting to prevent death the driving force in almost all of Trek?
Yeah, and this new take sucks at it. Try to save everyone in the meeting room? Nope. Khan kills a good chunk of them. Try to reason with the Klingons? Nope. Khan starts a fight which leaves all of the Klingons dead. Try to capture Admiral Marcus alive? Nope. Khan brutally kills him. Try to stop the Vengeance from crashing into San Francisco after restoring power to the Enterprise's system? Nope. We don't even get a "There's not much power!" or anything as to why the Enterprise didn't try and prevent the Vengeance from crashing. They just sit there.
Doesn't this simply show that the stakes are horribly high, and that the Enterprise and her crew are against insurmountable odds?

I really wonder what the Enterprise, even at full power and structural integrity, could do to stop a ship more than 3 times its size from crashing. No tractor beam could haul the Vengeance in. And the Enterprise was already severely battered, it's unfair to say the crew just sat there when minutes ago they weren't sure if they were going to live.

I think above the others, this jab against the Enterprise not trying to prevent the Vengeance from crashing is ridiculous and unfair.
You didn't get the memo? Apparently Star Trek fans are so fucking stupid and lacking in imagination now that we have to have everything explained to us in mind-numbing detail.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:52 PM   #25
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

It's become somewhat of a staple of post-9/11 TV and film to include large numbers of casualties. But going way back, TOS had insanely huge numbers casualties, although it always happened off-screen. In Wrath of Khan, Khan tortured and murdered the Regula staff and probably the Reliant crew as well, but of course we don't see it. Now it's all more immediate.

And I'd say the Enterprise was utterly incapable of doing anything but "sit there" when the Vengeance flew past. It took a whole year to repair her. What could they have done?
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Old September 26 2013, 03:54 PM   #26
Jeyl
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
No tractor beam could haul the Vengeance in.
Sounds like a situation our characters have to think their way out of. We don't have weapons, we barely have moving power and there's not enough time to warn San Francisco about the danger they're in. What do we have? A crippled, badly damaged Enterprise that can now move and a tractor beam that isn't powerful enough to completely stop the Vengeance on it's own. But we do have those two things working so we can do something with them. What if we get the Enterprise positioned over the Vengeance, lock onto an area of the saucer section with the tractor beam and use every working engine left to push the Vengeance down into the Ocean? The Vengeance doesn't have the power for vertical control, so why not give that idea a shot? Heck, you could use the footage of the Vengeance crashing into the water as it is shown and just cut to a shot of the Enterprise above it being the force that's pushing it down and make a new shot of the Vengeance coming to a dead stop before it hits the city. Khan can still jump out of the ship and you can still have your foot chase.
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Old September 26 2013, 03:58 PM   #27
BillJ
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
No tractor beam could haul the Vengeance in.
Sounds like a situation our characters have to think their way out of. We don't have weapons, we barely have moving power and there's not enough time to warn San Francisco about the danger they're in. What do we have? A crippled, badly damaged Enterprise that can now move and a tractor beam that isn't powerful enough to completely stop the Vengeance on it's own. But we do have those two things working so we can do something with them. What if we get the Enterprise positioned over the Vengeance, lock onto an area of the saucer section with the tractor beam and use every working engine left to push the Vengeance down into the Ocean? The Vengeance doesn't have the power for vertical control, so why not give that idea a shot? Heck, you could use the footage of the Vengeance crashing into the water as it is shown and just cut to a shot of the Enterprise above it being the force that's pushing it down and make a new shot of the Vengeance coming to a dead stop before it hits the city. Khan can still jump out of the ship and you can still have your foot chase.
But this adds absolutely nothing to the film and actually bogs it down. Plus, then you'd have people bitching about how starships don't work that way.

Pass.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:00 PM   #28
Sindatur
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
No tractor beam could haul the Vengeance in.
Sounds like a situation our characters have to think their way out of. We don't have weapons, we barely have moving power and there's not enough time to warn San Francisco about the danger they're in. What do we have? A crippled, badly damaged Enterprise that can now move and a tractor beam that isn't powerful enough to completely stop the Vengeance on it's own. But we do have those two things working so we can do something with them. What if we get the Enterprise positioned over the Vengeance, lock onto an area of the saucer section with the tractor beam and use every working engine left to push the Vengeance down into the Ocean? The Vengeance doesn't have the power for vertical control, so why not give that idea a shot? Heck, you could use the footage of the Vengeance crashing into the water as it is shown and just cut to a shot of the Enterprise above it being the force that's pushing it down and make a new shot of the Vengeance coming to a dead stop before it hits the city. Khan can still jump out of the ship and you can still have your foot chase.
Do you honestly believe a crash into the Ocean or the bay is going to be any less devastating? When you crash a big ship into the ocean or the bay, from orbit, you are going to create Tidal waves, which are going to cause just as much damage, plus using that much power would probably re-cripple the Enterprise and she would've crashed too, increasing the damage done. As was stated, it took an entire year to repair her, she didn't just have a scrape here and there, it was major damage. She barely had mobility, and the tractor beam would've likely drug them down with the Vengeance
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Old September 26 2013, 04:07 PM   #29
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

Like BillJ said, it adds nothing and in my opinion would have caused some sort of tone mismatch. It had been tragic up until now and slowly descending into wrath on part of Spock. To suddenly make it a rescue mission would shift the tone to a more hopeful one and I think this sudden shift would damage the movie. Besides...

Jeyl wrote: View Post
What if we get the Enterprise positioned over the Vengeance, lock onto an area of the saucer section with the tractor beam and use every working engine left to push the Vengeance down into the Ocean?
The Enterprise was barely holding itself together, and it's expected to match the Vengeance in velocity by flying over it? I don't think it can even reach the Vengeance at that stage.
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Old September 26 2013, 04:34 PM   #30
Jeyl
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Re: USS Vengeance & Mass Destruction.

BillJ wrote: View Post
But this adds absolutely nothing to the film and actually bogs it down. Plus, then you'd have people bitching about how starships don't work that way.
Sure it does. It gives the Enterprise a moment where it actually did something to stop the Vengeance.

ComicGuy89 wrote:
To suddenly make it a rescue mission would shift the tone to a more hopeful one and I think this sudden shift would damage the movie
Isn't that what we get in the film anyways? We have a tragic, quiet death of Kirk followed immediately by another action set piece with Spock trying to kill Khan out of vengeance which than turns into a rescue mission to save Kirk. If you think having two shifts in tone is too much, I'll understand that better. But don't say that shifting tone on it's own is a bad thing, because that's exactly what the film did.
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