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Old September 25 2013, 09:08 AM   #1351
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

So, the Gotham PD series, set between TDK and TDKR, that was announced some time ago turned out to be a non-starter. But it's now being reported that there may be another Gotham-set cop series, here set at the beginning of the career of its central character, one James Gordon. Now this could be interesting - if the Bat-embargo ever lets it take off.

http://moviehole.net/201368360tv-spi...-on-jim-gordon
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Old September 25 2013, 08:13 PM   #1352
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
So, the Gotham PD series, set between TDK and TDKR, that was announced some time ago turned out to be a non-starter. But it's now being reported that there may be another Gotham-set cop series, here set at the beginning of the career of its central character, one James Gordon. Now this could be interesting - if the Bat-embargo ever lets it take off.

http://moviehole.net/201368360tv-spi...-on-jim-gordon
Going to throw out the obligatory Cranston just because he did such a great job in Year One.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:30 PM   #1353
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^They're saying this is a young Jim Gordon series. They'll probably find an actor in his 30s.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:49 PM   #1354
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Yeah, keep Cranston for the movies opposite his Argo co-star Ben Affleck!
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Old September 25 2013, 10:07 PM   #1355
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I'm all for new DC shows, but... one based around Jim Gordon? I'm just not seeing it.

Unless the writing is really damn good, I can't see people wanting to watch a show set in Gotham that doesn't involve Batman to some degree.

Especially after they already tried that with Birds of Prey.
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Old September 25 2013, 10:25 PM   #1356
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

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Especially after they already tried that with Birds of Prey.
I don't think that's a good example. That show had a number of more fundamental problems, like trying to do a Burton/Schumacher-style superhero show at a time when that style was starting to give way to something more sophisticated, or evidently being under network pressure to be a Charmed clone rather than just a Batman-family series. (I don't know for sure that such pressure existed, but the show sure felt to me like it was trying to imitate Charmed.) So it's not really evidence that a Gotham-without-Batman show can't work, any more than Elektra or Catwoman is evidence that a female-led superhero movie can't work. A bad (or at least fatally flawed) movie or show doesn't invalidate its whole genre.

I think if any non-hero DC character could anchor a show, Jim Gordon is a likely candidate. He's been a lead character before, in Batman: Year One (which was really more Gordon's story than Batman's) and Gotham Central. He's well-regarded as a heroic figure in his own right, and he's got a memorable narrative as the one honest cop who cleans up the corrupt GCPD.

But on the other hand, it's kind of like having a show about Watson without Holmes. Gordon works best as a counterpart to Batman. And having Gordon take on formative versions of Batman's rogues seems like it could be an awkward idea.

You know what, I take it back. The one DC character I'd most like to see as the star of a solo series is Lois Lane. I think her character has grown to the point where she can stand on her own as a solo heroine without needing Superman to save her all the time (as demonstrated in the great Tales of Metropolis with Lois Lane short on DC Nation), and her adventures as an intrepid reporter could be pretty cool. It might be nice to see a prequel series about how she establishes her reputation as the Daily Planet's star investigator.
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Old September 27 2013, 12:33 AM   #1357
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

You know what, I take it back. The one DC character I'd most like to see as the star of a solo series is Lois Lane. I think her character has grown to the point where she can stand on her own as a solo heroine without needing Superman to save her all the time (as demonstrated in the great Tales of Metropolis with Lois Lane short on DC Nation), and her adventures as an intrepid reporter could be pretty cool. It might be nice to see a prequel series about how she establishes her reputation as the Daily Planet's star investigator.
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.

I am beyond tired of being subjected to a character who embodies more than any other the sad, tired misconception that raging bitch = "strong female role model." I didn't like her in the Golden Age Superman stories (even comics historian Les Daniels admitted that Lois was unrealistically hostile and arrogant with everybody). I HATED her in Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut; I couldn't believe how selfish, thoughtless, and manipulative she was in that, what with trying to blow Clark's cover in front of the entire Planet staff and that stupid "tricked you with blanks" scene" (to be fair, Superman and Jor-El came off pretty reprehensible, too). I loathed the "Superbitch" era of the comics from approximately 1995-2005 where she was emotionally abusive and hateful not only with Clark, but with his female peers, and I found the heavily implied-with-the-subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer-to-the-face fling she had with a slimy ex named Jeb Friedman during and post-"death of Superman" that led into said era to be unforgivable. (Then-artist Ron Frenz gave me an earful of anger over it when I met him at a con a few years back, and Gail Simone spoke out against it once in an interview.) I couldn't stomach DC's alternative tack of having Lois' family hurt and and betray Superman (the Lane family siding with Luthor against him, Sam Lane's blind hatred of Clark on principle) during the times where Lois herself wasn't mistreating him. I found Kate Bosworth's live-action rendition of "Superbitch" Lois to be one of the several flaws that hobbled Superman Returns. And I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the insane, psychotic Lois Lane fandom that glorifies and celebrates her antics and viciously trolls fans of other characters/possible love interests. Everything about Lois infuriates me to no end. Even her "best reporter ever" boasts in the Tales of Metropolis shorts grates on me. This character has been so predominantly portrayed as unlikable, insufferable, and self-absorbed that every time she shows up, I tune out.

The only way I'd even think of checking out a Lois-centric series is if they drastically revamped Lois into a genuinely strong, likeable woman. Someone who isn't a mean-spirited, selfish nutjob who thinks the world owes her everything and throws a fit whenever her every whim isn't met. But I don't ever expect that to happen, because the meanness has become too ingrained into Lois' character at this point. And frankly, I just don't have the patience to put up with it anymore.
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Old September 27 2013, 12:37 AM   #1358
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

I liked Amy Adams' Lois very much.
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Old September 27 2013, 12:57 AM   #1359
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mr. Comic Book wrote: View Post
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.

I am beyond tired of being subjected to a character who embodies more than any other the sad, tired misconception that raging bitch = "strong female role model." I didn't like her in the Golden Age Superman stories (even comics historian Les Daniels admitted that Lois was unrealistically hostile and arrogant with everybody). I HATED her in Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut; I couldn't believe how selfish, thoughtless, and manipulative she was in that, what with trying to blow Clark's cover in front of the entire Planet staff and that stupid "tricked you with blanks" scene" (to be fair, Superman and Jor-El came off pretty reprehensible, too). I loathed the "Superbitch" era of the comics from approximately 1995-2005 where she was emotionally abusive and hateful not only with Clark, but with his female peers, and I found the heavily implied-with-the-subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer-to-the-face fling she had with a slimy ex named Jeb Friedman during and post-"death of Superman" that led into said era to be unforgivable. (Then-artist Ron Frenz gave me an earful of anger over it when I met him at a con a few years back, and Gail Simone spoke out against it once in an interview.) I couldn't stomach DC's alternative tack of having Lois' family hurt and and betray Superman (the Lane family siding with Luthor against him, Sam Lane's blind hatred of Clark on principle) during the times where Lois herself wasn't mistreating him. I found Kate Bosworth's live-action rendition of "Superbitch" Lois to be one of the several flaws that hobbled Superman Returns. And I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the insane, psychotic Lois Lane fandom that glorifies and celebrates her antics and viciously trolls fans of other characters/possible love interests. Everything about Lois infuriates me to no end. Even her "best reporter ever" boasts in the Tales of Metropolis shorts grates on me. This character has been so predominantly portrayed as unlikable, insufferable, and self-absorbed that every time she shows up, I tune out.

The only way I'd even think of checking out a Lois-centric series is if they drastically revamped Lois into a genuinely strong, likeable woman. Someone who isn't a mean-spirited, selfish nutjob who thinks the world owes her everything and throws a fit whenever her every whim isn't met. But I don't ever expect that to happen, because the meanness has become too ingrained into Lois' character at this point. And frankly, I just don't have the patience to put up with it anymore.
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Old September 27 2013, 01:22 AM   #1360
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mr. Comic Book wrote: View Post
You know what, I take it back. The one DC character I'd most like to see as the star of a solo series is Lois Lane. I think her character has grown to the point where she can stand on her own as a solo heroine without needing Superman to save her all the time (as demonstrated in the great Tales of Metropolis with Lois Lane short on DC Nation), and her adventures as an intrepid reporter could be pretty cool. It might be nice to see a prequel series about how she establishes her reputation as the Daily Planet's star investigator.
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.

I am beyond tired of being subjected to a character who embodies more than any other the sad, tired misconception that raging bitch = "strong female role model." I didn't like her in the Golden Age Superman stories (even comics historian Les Daniels admitted that Lois was unrealistically hostile and arrogant with everybody). I HATED her in Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut; I couldn't believe how selfish, thoughtless, and manipulative she was in that, what with trying to blow Clark's cover in front of the entire Planet staff and that stupid "tricked you with blanks" scene" (to be fair, Superman and Jor-El came off pretty reprehensible, too). I loathed the "Superbitch" era of the comics from approximately 1995-2005 where she was emotionally abusive and hateful not only with Clark, but with his female peers, and I found the heavily implied-with-the-subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer-to-the-face fling she had with a slimy ex named Jeb Friedman during and post-"death of Superman" that led into said era to be unforgivable. (Then-artist Ron Frenz gave me an earful of anger over it when I met him at a con a few years back, and Gail Simone spoke out against it once in an interview.) I couldn't stomach DC's alternative tack of having Lois' family hurt and and betray Superman (the Lane family siding with Luthor against him, Sam Lane's blind hatred of Clark on principle) during the times where Lois herself wasn't mistreating him. I found Kate Bosworth's live-action rendition of "Superbitch" Lois to be one of the several flaws that hobbled Superman Returns. And I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the insane, psychotic Lois Lane fandom that glorifies and celebrates her antics and viciously trolls fans of other characters/possible love interests. Everything about Lois infuriates me to no end. Even her "best reporter ever" boasts in the Tales of Metropolis shorts grates on me. This character has been so predominantly portrayed as unlikable, insufferable, and self-absorbed that every time she shows up, I tune out.

The only way I'd even think of checking out a Lois-centric series is if they drastically revamped Lois into a genuinely strong, likeable woman. Someone who isn't a mean-spirited, selfish nutjob who thinks the world owes her everything and throws a fit whenever her every whim isn't met. But I don't ever expect that to happen, because the meanness has become too ingrained into Lois' character at this point. And frankly, I just don't have the patience to put up with it anymore.
Paragraphs. Look into them.

Also, Lois Lane is the most significant fictional female character of the 20th century. She's not a "superbitch" or whatever other nonsense you could stuff into that wall of text.
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Old September 27 2013, 01:26 AM   #1361
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mr. Comic Book wrote: View Post
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.
Well, Superman is dating Wonder Woman nowadays in the comics...
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Old September 27 2013, 01:45 AM   #1362
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Mr. Comic Book wrote: View Post
You know what, I take it back. The one DC character I'd most like to see as the star of a solo series is Lois Lane. I think her character has grown to the point where she can stand on her own as a solo heroine without needing Superman to save her all the time (as demonstrated in the great Tales of Metropolis with Lois Lane short on DC Nation), and her adventures as an intrepid reporter could be pretty cool. It might be nice to see a prequel series about how she establishes her reputation as the Daily Planet's star investigator.
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.

I am beyond tired of being subjected to a character who embodies more than any other the sad, tired misconception that raging bitch = "strong female role model." I didn't like her in the Golden Age Superman stories (even comics historian Les Daniels admitted that Lois was unrealistically hostile and arrogant with everybody). I HATED her in Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut; I couldn't believe how selfish, thoughtless, and manipulative she was in that, what with trying to blow Clark's cover in front of the entire Planet staff and that stupid "tricked you with blanks" scene" (to be fair, Superman and Jor-El came off pretty reprehensible, too). I loathed the "Superbitch" era of the comics from approximately 1995-2005 where she was emotionally abusive and hateful not only with Clark, but with his female peers, and I found the heavily implied-with-the-subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer-to-the-face fling she had with a slimy ex named Jeb Friedman during and post-"death of Superman" that led into said era to be unforgivable. (Then-artist Ron Frenz gave me an earful of anger over it when I met him at a con a few years back, and Gail Simone spoke out against it once in an interview.) I couldn't stomach DC's alternative tack of having Lois' family hurt and and betray Superman (the Lane family siding with Luthor against him, Sam Lane's blind hatred of Clark on principle) during the times where Lois herself wasn't mistreating him. I found Kate Bosworth's live-action rendition of "Superbitch" Lois to be one of the several flaws that hobbled Superman Returns. And I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the insane, psychotic Lois Lane fandom that glorifies and celebrates her antics and viciously trolls fans of other characters/possible love interests. Everything about Lois infuriates me to no end. Even her "best reporter ever" boasts in the Tales of Metropolis shorts grates on me. This character has been so predominantly portrayed as unlikable, insufferable, and self-absorbed that every time she shows up, I tune out.

The only way I'd even think of checking out a Lois-centric series is if they drastically revamped Lois into a genuinely strong, likeable woman. Someone who isn't a mean-spirited, selfish nutjob who thinks the world owes her everything and throws a fit whenever her every whim isn't met. But I don't ever expect that to happen, because the meanness has become too ingrained into Lois' character at this point. And frankly, I just don't have the patience to put up with it anymore.
These observations don't really apply to the depiction of Lois in the comics, especially during the John Byrne era and the years following. She was a supportive, compassionate, driven, and caring individual. She supported Superman/Clark as not only a caring and devoted spouse, but also as a professional partner.

The Lois in Lois and Clark was similar to the comics version in this sense. Even the Smallville version grew up over the course of the series to be a really likeable character.

The Lois you refer to is based on the films and not much else.
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Old September 27 2013, 01:47 AM   #1363
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Mr. Comic Book wrote: View Post
You know what, I take it back. The one DC character I'd most like to see as the star of a solo series is Lois Lane. I think her character has grown to the point where she can stand on her own as a solo heroine without needing Superman to save her all the time (as demonstrated in the great Tales of Metropolis with Lois Lane short on DC Nation), and her adventures as an intrepid reporter could be pretty cool. It might be nice to see a prequel series about how she establishes her reputation as the Daily Planet's star investigator.
I can't think of a character I'm sicker of than Lois Lane.

I am beyond tired of being subjected to a character who embodies more than any other the sad, tired misconception that raging bitch = "strong female role model." I didn't like her in the Golden Age Superman stories (even comics historian Les Daniels admitted that Lois was unrealistically hostile and arrogant with everybody). I HATED her in Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut; I couldn't believe how selfish, thoughtless, and manipulative she was in that, what with trying to blow Clark's cover in front of the entire Planet staff and that stupid "tricked you with blanks" scene" (to be fair, Superman and Jor-El came off pretty reprehensible, too). I loathed the "Superbitch" era of the comics from approximately 1995-2005 where she was emotionally abusive and hateful not only with Clark, but with his female peers, and I found the heavily implied-with-the-subtlety-of-a-sledgehammer-to-the-face fling she had with a slimy ex named Jeb Friedman during and post-"death of Superman" that led into said era to be unforgivable. (Then-artist Ron Frenz gave me an earful of anger over it when I met him at a con a few years back, and Gail Simone spoke out against it once in an interview.) I couldn't stomach DC's alternative tack of having Lois' family hurt and and betray Superman (the Lane family siding with Luthor against him, Sam Lane's blind hatred of Clark on principle) during the times where Lois herself wasn't mistreating him. I found Kate Bosworth's live-action rendition of "Superbitch" Lois to be one of the several flaws that hobbled Superman Returns. And I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the insane, psychotic Lois Lane fandom that glorifies and celebrates her antics and viciously trolls fans of other characters/possible love interests. Everything about Lois infuriates me to no end. Even her "best reporter ever" boasts in the Tales of Metropolis shorts grates on me. This character has been so predominantly portrayed as unlikable, insufferable, and self-absorbed that every time she shows up, I tune out.

The only way I'd even think of checking out a Lois-centric series is if they drastically revamped Lois into a genuinely strong, likeable woman. Someone who isn't a mean-spirited, selfish nutjob who thinks the world owes her everything and throws a fit whenever her every whim isn't met. But I don't ever expect that to happen, because the meanness has become too ingrained into Lois' character at this point. And frankly, I just don't have the patience to put up with it anymore.
Paragraphs. Look into them.

Also, Lois Lane is the most significant fictional female character of the 20th century. She's not a "superbitch" or whatever other nonsense you could stuff into that wall of text.
Manners. Look into them.

"Suoerbitch" was a nickname Lois got from the fandom during the 1995-2005 period I was talking about. The official DC message boards at the time were rife with complaints about the stories in question, and other message boards at sites like Newsarama were commenting on the backlash DC was getting over the way they were writing Lois. I didn't pull the name out of thin air; it was what fans had come to call her because of the way DC was portraying her. As to your assertion that I'm full of nonsense, care to tell creators like Ron Frenz (who drew some of the stories in question and didn't like the direction DC wanted), Gail Simone (who criticized the stories in interviews), and Kurt Busiek (who admitted on Comic Book Resources that DC had made Lois unsympathetic) that they're liars? Also, care to tell Les Daniels that he was lying about Lois being written as implausibly hostile in his DC retrospective books? (Oh, wait. He's dead. Guess you can't do that.)

"The most significant female character of the 20th century"? That's a major, major stretch. I wouldn't even call the male superheroes "the most significant creations" of the century. So spare me your fanboyism.

These observations don't really apply to the depiction of Lois in the comics, especially during the John Byrne era and the years following. She was a supportive, compassionate, driven, and caring individual. She supported Superman/Clark as not only a caring and devoted spouse, but also as a professional partner.

The Lois you refer to is based on the films and not much else.
What?

Lois' fling with Jeb during and post-"death of Superman" doesn't apply to the comics? It was going on IN the comics at the time. Letter columns were full of complaints about Jeb and how much they disliked his character, and how much they disliked the way he was being set up as Superman's rival. (And again, Ron Frenz, who was working on the books at thee time, confirmed this was going on when I met him a few years ago.) Lois' breakup with Clark in the comics after Jeb's death was also a point of contention with fans, especially when Lois told Clark "I need more from a man, more than you're able to give!" The only reason Lois & Clark got married at all was because WB forced DC to honor their original agreement to marry them of in tandem with the TV show. People at DC were voicing complaints about how WB was disrupting their storylines by doing so, and DC editorr Joey Cavalieri later admitted that if the writers had to do it over again, the marriage would never have happened.

Also, the marriage was not a "caring, devoted" one. It was turbulent. Stuart Immonen wrote a story where Lois lashed out at Clark over his Superman responsibilities (including fights with giant lobster robots) and stood him up when he tried to make it up to her "to teach you a lesson." (What lesson, don't do your job?) The whole Parasite-as-Lois story was built around the idea that Lois had those abusive tendencies, and again, fan response was such that they thought Lois had gone off the deep end that time, and DC used it to milk that story for all it was worth.

Then you had a Captain Marvel guest-shot issue where she starts the issue off being mad at him for saving her and ends it being mad at him for not saving her.

Then you had "Our Worlds at War," where Lois' father -- now allied with Luthor -- faked his death while Superman was trying to stop Imperiex from wiping out the Amazons, and Lois, under the pretense of a vacation with her mother, tried to leave him, leaving a "Dear John" message for him and writing journal entries about how much she hated him for not sacrificing the Amazons for her father. (She later explicitly states this in a subsequent issue featuring Dracula.)

Then there was the arrival of the Cir-El Supergirl, which had Lois ranting and raving that Clark was cheating on her with the female members of the JLA and demanding to know which one it was.

And then there was another blow-up between them when he and Perry White faked his firing from the Planet so he could covertly go after Luthor, and she took it as an insult because she wasn't in on it. (Never mind that she was previously blackmailed by Luthor into killing stories of his choosing lest he bankrupt the Planet, and told no one.)

And then, in the Chuck Austen run of Action Comics (not a good run, but that's another argument,) Martha calls Lois out for taking Clark for granted. In-universe, it was eventually admitted that Lois hadn't been good to Clark. Mind you, Lana Lang was likewise being written as unsavory (and Martha called her out, too), but even in the stories there was no pretense that Lois and Clark were a harmonious couple.

Also, the Lane family picking up the "mistreat Clark" slack? Pretty much everything post-Jeb right thru the New Krypton event, starting with Sam Lane hating Clark's guts and eventually escalating to Sam and Lucy siding with Luthor against Superman and killing the New Krypton colony.

Also? The writers responsible for those stories were also making it clear in interviews that they opposed the marriage and wanted the Love Triangle back. They weren't hiding their agenda, and in fact there were story pitches to pull a proto-"One More Day" to that end (including one by Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, among others). And again, if this was all movie-based as you claim, why would people like Gail Simone and Kurt Busiek be opposed to the way Lois was written? People who tried to fix the damage and arguably didn't succeed? And if this was all movie-based, why were comic book forums of the time so unhappy with the stories? Why did "Superbitch" become the go-to nickname for Lois? (No, I'm not the one who coined it.) Again, this didn't come out of thin air. People were unhappy with the direction DC insisted on, and it got worse the more DC kept it up.

The Lois I speak of IS the comic book version. Predominantly from the Man of Steel-Flashpoint era, yes. But I am absolutely speaking of the comics. And that's not even getting into the Golden Age comics (podcasters like Jon Wilson at Golden Age Superman have talked about this). So don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm only using a movie-based argument when I'm explicitly talking about the comics.

Last edited by Mr. Comic Book; September 27 2013 at 02:21 AM.
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Old September 27 2013, 02:12 AM   #1364
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Can't say I've ever heard Lois called "superbitch". Not even on the DC Comics message boards in the late 90s and the early 00s.
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Old September 27 2013, 02:26 AM   #1365
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Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

"Bitch" has too often been a sexist code word used to demonize women who dare to show any assertiveness or independence. So an argument that uses that slur three times in a single paragraph is immediately suspect. And given how much ingrained sexism there is in comics fandom, I'm not surprised that there would've been a segment of the fanbase attacking Lois in that way. When Star Trek: Voyager came along, there was a lot of comparably ugly rhetoric about Captain Janeway.
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