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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 25 2013, 05:23 AM   #31
Anwar
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
It would have been nice to have had some additional re-occurring villains on the show, mix things up a bit with the Hirogen and Vidians.
If that were true, folks wouldn't have hated the Vidiians and Hirogen to begin with.
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Old September 25 2013, 05:31 AM   #32
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Forbid the concept that people didn't like the Vidiians and Hirogen because they were one dimensional.

All the Viidians did was harvest organs. All the Hirogen did was glorify hunting. There was no substance to them, just frosting.
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Old September 25 2013, 05:32 AM   #33
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Anwar wrote: View Post
They tried repeatedly to create alien species that could be used in recurring roles. The Kazon, the Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen, etc. The audience didn't like a single one of them and continually pointed out how it didn't make sense how a constantly moving ship shouldn't have recurring enemies.

What makes you think these robots would work out any better than any of those others? The audience already made it perfectly clear they didn't want any new aliens to begin with.
DS9 was able to use the Dominion through out the run of the show, how many people thought the Dominion were lame villains?

The problem with a lot of the Voyager created villains, many of them were not memorable or menacing or interesting and felt like cheap knocks off other villains. If the Kazon are just the poor man's Klingons, why should I care about them? At least the robots could have been a unique enemy species in Star Trek lore.
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Old September 25 2013, 06:59 AM   #34
Anwar
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

R. Star wrote: View Post
Forbid the concept that people didn't like the Vidiians and Hirogen because they were one dimensional.
So was the Dominion.

All the Viidians did was harvest organs. All the Hirogen did was glorify hunting. There was no substance to them, just frosting.
They tried to do more with the Vidiian Doctor who was willing to kill another dude and take his face because he thought it would B'Ellana like him. And they also tried for more with that Vidiian Doctor the Doctor fell in love with.

What do they get for these attempts at depth? Critical panning.

There's no point in trying to give depth when the audience reaction will always be the same. All you've done then is waste effort for folks who will never ever have anything appreciative to say.

DS9 was able to use the Dominion through out the run of the show
Double Standard. If the Dominion had been a VOY enemy no one would like them.

It helped that DS9 could use their new enemies alongside existing ones to help ease them in. VOY didn't have that luxury.

Hell, go with the Robots and the only reaction you'd get would be that VOY ripped off the Jem'Hadar concept only as robots vs Clones.

Last edited by Anwar; September 25 2013 at 07:16 AM.
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Old September 25 2013, 07:11 AM   #35
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

You sure take liberties in speaking for the entire audience quite often Anwar.
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Old September 25 2013, 07:38 AM   #36
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

I've been putting up with them for over 20 years, I think I get them quite well. Them, their double standards, their biased preferences, their lack of patience, the whole load.

Honestly, look around you'll see folks way more willing to take pot shots at Voyager rather than say anything nice about the show. Same goes for anyone who dared to enjoy the show in the first place.

Voyager introduces the Vidiians, audience complains that they lack depth.

Voyager tried to give individual Vidiians with depth, audience complains they shouldn't be giving them depth.

What's the point?
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Old September 25 2013, 07:55 AM   #37
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Who's them again? This imaginary group of people you see slighting something you like? And I'm sorry but ripping off Leatherface and a romance of the week doesn't qualify as depth.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:04 AM   #38
Anwar
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

R. Star wrote: View Post
Who's them again? This imaginary group of people you see slighting something you like?
They ain't imaginary pal...

And I'm sorry but ripping off Leatherface and a romance of the week doesn't qualify as depth.
The Borg can rip off the Cybermen, no one cares. One Vidiian takes a small point from some Horror film and the result is critical panning.

A sympathetic, 3-Dimensional alien is shown from an antagonistic race and again there is no appreciation. Meanwhile DS9 gets away with 1-Dimensional bozos like the Breen or the Founders.

I suppose you'd dislike it if the Vidiian Doctor stayed on as a recurring character? Certainly no room for depth there, huh?

Let me guess, you found the aliens in "Living Witness" to be 1-Dimensional as well?

Nevermind this is mainly the result of Voyager's "Always on the move" premise inherently limiting what they could do in the first place.

Last edited by Anwar; September 25 2013 at 08:14 AM.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:09 AM   #39
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

But you of course don't have an attitude at all.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:22 AM   #40
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

I don't deny maybe I get a little too defensive, but it doesn't change that VOY is more heavily criticized than the rest of Trek. And it gets less appreciation for whenever it pulled off anything folks didn't automatically hate.
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Old September 25 2013, 08:41 AM   #41
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Fair enough. I'd say getting defensive over other people's opinions is unhealthy to say the least, but whatever suits you. Though I would contest that Enterprise gets the most hate. I would encourage you not to use "them" as a collective whole to describe people who don't like Voyager as much as you do though, as if something was wrong with that. Ask a dozen people their opinion, you'll get at least thirteen different answers, so best to take em one at a time.

But to your previous queries... Denara, the problem with making her a reoccurring character is the same with any reoccurring race in Voyager, they're destined to be left behind. Pel did appear briefly in Resolutions to solve the problem of the week though. They went out of their way to make her a non-evil Viidian which is great, but never really demonstrated why she was different or why she put up with the rest of the homicidal maniacs. Maybe if she stuck around for a couple more episodes they could've fleshed her, and the Viidian culture out more but as written she just was a romantic interest for the Doctor.

I liked the Vaskans and Kyrians in Living Witness. While they weren't fleshed out themselves, the social conflict between the two races was. You really don't have to know much about either race in this one shot episode to get a grasp of the conflict and how history can easily be revisionist over the years.

Now, if you'll take me separately from a collective group of "them" and address me as an individual, yes I do find Voyager disappointing. I am critical of it's flaws. No, I don't hate Voyager. If I did, I'd spend my time somewhere else posting. To me Voyager was average in it's own right. It's my third favorite series of the five. I still find it the most disappointing of all of them, not because it's terribly bad, but because it could've been so much more in my opinion. All the parts were there, they were just never executed.

If it's your favorite show, that's great and I wouldn't presume to take away from that. But it is a bit silly to get so defensive over others opinions of it, especially when you're taking the same labels that get you in that state and apply them to the other series as some sort of rebuttal. It's a discussion board after all, that's part of the fun debating the various episodes, characters and issues of them with other people. If everyone agreed, what's the point?
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Old September 25 2013, 01:27 PM   #42
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

Anwar wrote: View Post
I've been putting up with them for over 20 years, I think I get them quite well. Them, their double standards, their biased preferences, their lack of patience, the whole load.

Honestly, look around you'll see folks way more willing to take pot shots at Voyager rather than say anything nice about the show. Same goes for anyone who dared to enjoy the show in the first place.

Voyager introduces the Vidiians, audience complains that they lack depth.

Voyager tried to give individual Vidiians with depth, audience complains they shouldn't be giving them depth.

What's the point?
I think you're right, and you can see this on this very board. I was reading a TNG thread about an episode in which someone said the science wasn't really accurate. The majority of the posts that followed were along the lines of "I don't care if the science is off I just want to watch a tv show and be entertained" I've then seen some of those same people post here and rip into Voyager for having a bit of innacurate science

people always complain about Voyager using too much time travel, but when you look at the episodes both TNG and Voyager had the same number of episodes, but nobody complains about TNG doing it.

And the Borg, how often do you hear that voyager ruined the borg, well when Voyager first aired, people RAVED about the Borg episodes. The ratings for any Borg episode were always super high, so peole loved it.

I've noticed a lot here that people who say they like Voyager will only post negative things about the show
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Old September 25 2013, 01:29 PM   #43
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

R. Star wrote: View Post
But you of course don't have an attitude at all.
I don't think there is an attitude there, just passion for a show that gets (I think unfairly) trashed a lot
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Old September 25 2013, 01:32 PM   #44
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

R. Star wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I'd say getting defensive over other people's opinions is unhealthy to say the least, but whatever suits you. Though I would contest that Enterprise gets the most hate. I would encourage you not to use "them" as a collective whole to describe people who don't like Voyager as much as you do though, as if something was wrong with that. Ask a dozen people their opinion, you'll get at least thirteen different answers, so best to take em one at a time.

But to your previous queries... Denara, the problem with making her a reoccurring character is the same with any reoccurring race in Voyager, they're destined to be left behind. Pel did appear briefly in Resolutions to solve the problem of the week though. They went out of their way to make her a non-evil Viidian which is great, but never really demonstrated why she was different or why she put up with the rest of the homicidal maniacs. Maybe if she stuck around for a couple more episodes they could've fleshed her, and the Viidian culture out more but as written she just was a romantic interest for the Doctor.

I liked the Vaskans and Kyrians in Living Witness. While they weren't fleshed out themselves, the social conflict between the two races was. You really don't have to know much about either race in this one shot episode to get a grasp of the conflict and how history can easily be revisionist over the years.

Now, if you'll take me separately from a collective group of "them" and address me as an individual, yes I do find Voyager disappointing. I am critical of it's flaws. No, I don't hate Voyager. If I did, I'd spend my time somewhere else posting. To me Voyager was average in it's own right. It's my third favorite series of the five. I still find it the most disappointing of all of them, not because it's terribly bad, but because it could've been so much more in my opinion. All the parts were there, they were just never executed.

If it's your favorite show, that's great and I wouldn't presume to take away from that. But it is a bit silly to get so defensive over others opinions of it, especially when you're taking the same labels that get you in that state and apply them to the other series as some sort of rebuttal. It's a discussion board after all, that's part of the fun debating the various episodes, characters and issues of them with other people. If everyone agreed, what's the point?
I have to ask, we're posting on a board about a show. Some peole like the show some peole don't. So if somone says something negative, what's wrong with the people who like the show defending it? Isn't that the point of posting at all? There would be no point in a message board if eveyone had the same thought on everything

Trash the show and it's fine, but defend the show against a negative comment and we're being "unhealthy" and "defensive"
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Old September 25 2013, 03:35 PM   #45
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Re: The Robots From Prototype

KaraBear wrote: View Post
people always complain about Voyager using too much time travel, but when you look at the episodes both TNG and Voyager had the same number of episodes, but nobody complains about TNG doing it.
I have wondered lately, if the earlier shows had similar flaws and yet get less flak for it than Voyager. But if so, there must be some reason, something else that put people off this time around. I'm not sure what. Maybe simply some sort of fan fatigue; a third tv series in a row, and one not doing much different, certainly not as much different as the premise would suggest.

Careful with these claims about "everybody" and "nobody" tho. You're getting into Anwar territory where he shapes his own perception of fandom and then has a good rant at it. Perhaps better to deal directly with what people here say.

(also: you can put multiple quotes in a single post! no need to triple-post).
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