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Old September 24 2013, 04:41 PM   #31
Mach5
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Gaith wrote: View Post
Hm... let's maybe please not use the "b-word", mmkay?
Borg?

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Old September 25 2013, 02:22 AM   #32
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I dunno...I guess I'm left feeling that whether or not it's okay to violate the Prime Directive is rather akin to the issues brought up in the Futurama episode "Godfellas".

Still love this line...it applies to playing God, but might just as well apply to violating the Prime Directive - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all."


"Dear Doctor" is simply a terrible episode.

Phlox has made the determination that the Menk can't evolve with the Valakians around even though we see that the Menk have language, the ability to use logic and work in hospitals and even use touch screen computers.

Phlox came off looking like he had no idea what he was talking about and Archer blindly followed him.
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Old September 25 2013, 09:51 AM   #33
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Phlox has made the determination that the Menk can't evolve with the Valakians around even though we see that the Menk have language, the ability to use logic and work in hospitals and even use touch screen computers.
PHLOX: I've been studying their genome as well, and I've seen evidence of increasing intelligence. Motor skills, linguistic abilities. Unlike the Valakians they appear to be in the process of an evolutionary awakening. It may take millennia, but the Menk have the potential to become the dominant species on this planet.
ARCHER: And that won't happen as long as the Valakians are around.
Andre Jacquemetton should feel ashamed for actually writing this.
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Old September 25 2013, 11:03 AM   #34
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

What if Phlox had discovered the exact same "science" about Denobulans.
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Old September 25 2013, 12:09 PM   #35
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

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The Federation doesn't have the resources to save every single non-warp-capable species out there from every disaster they can and will face, and even if they could, they would then be indirectly responsible for the consequences of their interference. If you do "the right thing" and save a planet of people who then become bent on conquering the galaxy, are you willing to take responsibility for cleaning up the mess you created?
I wouldn't have created a mess, whatever the species does in the future is not my responsibility, maybe they'll become bent on conquering the galaxy but maybe they'll find the magic formula and make klingons and romulans hold hands singing Kumbaya. Whatever they'll do some time in the future is absolutely and completely irrelevant, you cannot take an undetermined future into account.

Janeway said it herself: You have no idea what the consequences might be once you involve yourself.

And that's why it doesn't matter, maybe helping them will turn out to be the worst mistake ever but maybe NOT helping them will turn out to be the worst mistake ever or maybe it won't make a difference at all, you simply don't know.

When you're faced with the decision of saving peoples' lives there's only one thing you know for sure:

Do nothing, they die
Do something, they live

There's no question which one is the right choice, that this is even discussed in Star Trek is proof that the Prime Directive is a piece of shit policy.

About the example of into Darkness, who cares if they saw the Enterprise? Kirk didn't change the civilization's development because without him being there there would have been no civilization to develop further.
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Old September 25 2013, 03:29 PM   #36
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

If the plan had gone the way it was supposed to have gone, the civilization would have been saved and its development would not have been otherwise altered (okay, I suppose well down the line someone might realize the volcano had been tampered with once upon a time...).

Kirk -did- change the civilization. Whatever they will become will not be what they would have become had Kirk not acted to save Spock. I don't think the fact that the entire course of a society was changed should be reduced to "Well they would have died otherwise..."

Indeed, I'd be curious to see the original discussion that led to the implementation of Spock's plan to begin with.
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Old September 25 2013, 05:21 PM   #37
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

teacake wrote: View Post
What if Phlox had discovered the exact same "science" about Denobulans.
For all we know they did at some point. Phlox mentioned during the Augment arc they Denobulans regularly use genetic engineering.
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Old September 26 2013, 02:00 AM   #38
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

What I like best about this episode is that it puts a harsh light on dilemmas inherent in the Prime Directive and it invites the kind of debate going on here. Whether I agree with the choices or not, as long as they make sense in-universe and in character, I'm all for dramatizing tough decisions that test and even alienate the audience.
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Old September 26 2013, 02:14 AM   #39
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
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Old September 26 2013, 10:47 AM   #40
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Basically, The PD implies that a any civilization is better off extinct, than embracing religion.
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Old October 10 2013, 01:26 AM   #41
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Unless I missed it, was any reason given for the Enterprise being in the ocean as opposed to being in orbit?

The original intent was that the operation to quiet the volcano was to be conducted from a shuttle, relatively small and difficult to see through the ash cloud.

And from orbit the ship could have been position above the throat of the volcano, providing the direct line of sight necessary to beam Spock out and would have avoided the natives witnessing the ship rising out of the ocean.

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Old October 10 2013, 02:06 AM   #42
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Basically, The PD implies that a any civilization is better off extinct, than embracing religion.
Besides, there were very few witnesses. The rest of the folks on the planet know nothing of the volcano erupting, much less the Enterprise. They'd have no more reason to believe in the Sea/Sky bird than any other deities the planet's population worships. In a few thousand years, if and when they understand Geology, this place is going to look mighty peculiar. Until then, there's no reason to think this event is all that momentous unless you think extinction would be better for the planet's people than let one tribe see a spaceship.
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Old October 10 2013, 02:13 AM   #43
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
About the Nibiru thing - far as I'm concerned, they're absolutely better off. So they worship the Enterprise? Big deal. At least they're alive.
Unless I missed it, was any reason given for the Enterprise being in the ocean as opposed to being in orbit?
Original intent? I'm fairly sure they went with "how cool would a shot of the Enterprise coming out of the water be!" and tailored the story around that rather than thinking about how the best way to accomplish their task would've been.
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Old October 10 2013, 10:38 AM   #44
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Next movie the Enterprise will be coming out of jello.
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Old October 10 2013, 10:43 AM   #45
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

A jello monster trying to eat the Enterprise. We can call that episode eat or be eaten.
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