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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 24 2013, 08:19 PM   #61
DonIago
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

How do we know that time travel wasn't responsible for the divergence of the Mirror Unvierse?
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Old September 24 2013, 08:52 PM   #62
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
The Mirror Universe from TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", from several DS9 episodes and from ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the first proof of the existence of a parallel universe. On the other hand, we never get to see the point of divergence. The Mirror Universe may not have been created by a time travel. For all we can imagine, it may have been severed from our own universe in its early days. For some reason, it maintains close ties to our universe, which we would not normally expect because of the second law of thermodynamics that requires the separate universes to diverge increasingly over time. The Mirror Universe is a one-off phenomenon. The somewhat parallel development to the main timeline is not only dubious in real science. It does not comply either with what happens in most time travel incidents, where the changes accumulate (the "butterfly effect"), rather than lead to the birth of visually (and genetically?) identical characters in both universes. Hence, the Mirror Universe can't really serve as a prototype for what happens in "Star Trek (2009)".
But they use the same term ("Alternate reality") to describe the new movie universe (created by time travel) as they did to describe the mirror universe (more likely a spontaneous divegence as described by Data in the clip from "Parallels" I posted above ("For any event there are an infinite number of probable outcomes... anything that can happen, does happen, in alternate quantum realities"). Since the mirror universe doesn't overwrite the prime one, and Mirror-T'Pol described the Prime universe as "an alternate reality", it stands to reason that the term "alternate reality" descibes the non-overwriting parallel kind.

Remember it's fiction. They can change the rules if they want. I enjoy the novels that continue the prime universe and according to the writers of the movie and the novel DTI: Watching the Clock, they co-exist in the Trek multiverse. It's good enough for me.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:22 PM   #63
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

DonIago wrote: View Post
How do we know that time travel wasn't responsible for the divergence of the Mirror Unvierse?
We don't, but that doesn't mean you can use that excuse to justify thinking it was.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:26 PM   #64
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Makarov wrote: View Post
I know there's been differences between this timeline so far and the prime one. So far though, the movie plots have kept the characters pretty much status quo.

For instance, for a moment I thought they might kill off Kirk, or have crew members actually leave the Enterprise for good.

I'm curious if you guys think they will use the "different timeline" in a major way going forward? Killing a major character, making Kirk/Spock turn evil, etc... or do you think they will try to avoid changing up the crew?
Nope - this is movies, not the relatively settled environment of TV. Cast will move on and the core of the franchise will change. People may be killed off, spin offs to replace the core franchise may be required...
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Old September 24 2013, 09:32 PM   #65
Yanks
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
The Mirror Universe from TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", from several DS9 episodes and from ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the first proof of the existence of a parallel universe. On the other hand, we never get to see the point of divergence. The Mirror Universe may not have been created by a time travel. For all we can imagine, it may have been severed from our own universe in its early days. For some reason, it maintains close ties to our universe, which we would not normally expect because of the second law of thermodynamics that requires the separate universes to diverge increasingly over time. The Mirror Universe is a one-off phenomenon. The somewhat parallel development to the main timeline is not only dubious in real science. It does not comply either with what happens in most time travel incidents, where the changes accumulate (the "butterfly effect"), rather than lead to the birth of visually (and genetically?) identical characters in both universes. Hence, the Mirror Universe can't really serve as a prototype for what happens in "Star Trek (2009)".
But they use the same term ("Alternate reality") to describe the new movie universe (created by time travel) as they did to describe the mirror universe (more likely a spontaneous divegence as described by Data in the clip from "Parallels" I posted above ("For any event there are an infinite number of probable outcomes... anything that can happen, does happen, in alternate quantum realities"). Since the mirror universe doesn't overwrite the prime one, and Mirror-T'Pol described the Prime universe as "an alternate reality", it stands to reason that the term "alternate reality" descibes the non-overwriting parallel kind.

Remember it's fiction. They can change the rules if they want. I enjoy the novels that continue the prime universe and according to the writers of the movie and the novel DTI: Watching the Clock, they co-exist in the Trek multiverse. It's good enough for me.
I can appreciate that. But this seems to be a play on words that suits your needs.

T'Pol knew there was a different universe. She saw it in the computer.

All our new TOS heroes know is that their destiny has been changed.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:33 PM   #66
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
How do we know that time travel wasn't responsible for the divergence of the Mirror Unvierse?
We don't, but that doesn't mean you can use that excuse to justify thinking it was.
I think I just established that it's a possibility. And if the MU was established that way and is an alternate timeline then I've just strengthened the case for the recent films being set in an alternate timeline.
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Old September 24 2013, 09:43 PM   #67
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

The Mirror Universe from TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", from several DS9 episodes and from ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the first proof of the existence of a parallel universe. On the other hand, we never get to see the point of divergence. The Mirror Universe may not have been created by a time travel. For all we can imagine, it may have been severed from our own universe in its early days. For some reason, it maintains close ties to our universe, which we would not normally expect because of the second law of thermodynamics that requires the separate universes to diverge increasingly over time. The Mirror Universe is a one-off phenomenon. The somewhat parallel development to the main timeline is not only dubious in real science. It does not comply either with what happens in most time travel incidents, where the changes accumulate (the "butterfly effect"), rather than lead to the birth of visually (and genetically?) identical characters in both universes. Hence, the Mirror Universe can't really serve as a prototype for what happens in "Star Trek (2009)".
But they use the same term ("Alternate reality") to describe the new movie universe (created by time travel) as they did to describe the mirror universe (more likely a spontaneous divegence as described by Data in the clip from "Parallels" I posted above ("For any event there are an infinite number of probable outcomes... anything that can happen, does happen, in alternate quantum realities"). Since the mirror universe doesn't overwrite the prime one, and Mirror-T'Pol described the Prime universe as "an alternate reality", it stands to reason that the term "alternate reality" descibes the non-overwriting parallel kind.

Remember it's fiction. They can change the rules if they want. I enjoy the novels that continue the prime universe and according to the writers of the movie and the novel DTI: Watching the Clock, they co-exist in the Trek multiverse. It's good enough for me.
I can appreciate that. But this seems to be a play on words that suits your needs.

T'Pol knew there was a different universe. She saw it in the computer.

All our new TOS heroes know is that their destiny has been changed.
In THIS timeline, the original remains unchanged.
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Old September 24 2013, 10:49 PM   #68
Yanks
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
But they use the same term ("Alternate reality") to describe the new movie universe (created by time travel) as they did to describe the mirror universe (more likely a spontaneous divegence as described by Data in the clip from "Parallels" I posted above ("For any event there are an infinite number of probable outcomes... anything that can happen, does happen, in alternate quantum realities"). Since the mirror universe doesn't overwrite the prime one, and Mirror-T'Pol described the Prime universe as "an alternate reality", it stands to reason that the term "alternate reality" descibes the non-overwriting parallel kind.

Remember it's fiction. They can change the rules if they want. I enjoy the novels that continue the prime universe and according to the writers of the movie and the novel DTI: Watching the Clock, they co-exist in the Trek multiverse. It's good enough for me.
I can appreciate that. But this seems to be a play on words that suits your needs.

T'Pol knew there was a different universe. She saw it in the computer.

All our new TOS heroes know is that their destiny has been changed.
In THIS timeline, the original remains unchanged.
You have no proof of that seer.

No time travel in trek has ever created a different timeline.
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Old September 24 2013, 11:08 PM   #69
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

If the changes were subtle enough, you'd never know if it did...
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Old September 24 2013, 11:37 PM   #70
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Abrams and co specifically said that this was an ALTERNATE timeline, but I didn't change to old one. It was their way of rebooting and doing new stuff without having to say that everything that happened in the last 50 years of franchise history didn't count.
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Old September 24 2013, 11:48 PM   #71
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
No time travel in trek has ever created a different timeline.
Say what?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_timeline
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Old September 24 2013, 11:58 PM   #72
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

I can appreciate that. But this seems to be a play on words that suits your needs.

T'Pol knew there was a different universe. She saw it in the computer.

All our new TOS heroes know is that their destiny has been changed.
In THIS timeline, the original remains unchanged.
You have no proof of that seer.

No time travel in trek has ever created a different timeline.
'City on the Edge of Forever'. Spock is even using the Tricorder to see the changes resulting in the alternate timeline.

'Parallels' proves that alternate timelines exist and diverge ad infinitum. Multiple Universe Theory plays out that every decision causes a split in the timeline that creates a new universe.

'First Contact' changes Zephram Cochrane, who talks about a future with Robotic Zombies. One could say the universe Picard and crew returned to in the 24th Century was no longer the Prime Universe.
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Old September 25 2013, 12:12 AM   #73
saddestmoon
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

@ Yanks - I would suggest the history of Star Trek (all encompassing) abounds with different / alternate timelines - and Abrams' movies are in keeping with this Trek tradition.
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Old September 25 2013, 12:40 AM   #74
Set Harth
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

And we've never seen red matter black hole time travel before, so it's not a problem if it creates a branching timeline in STXI. Also see this graphic.
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Old September 25 2013, 03:59 AM   #75
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Opus wrote: View Post
First Contact' changes Zephram Cochrane, who talks about a future with Robotic Zombies. One could say the universe Picard and crew returned to in the 24th Century was no longer the Prime Universe.
It sure looked like the same universe to me. There's no evidence anything was changed there either.
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