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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 24 2013, 05:41 PM   #46
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yesterday's Enterprise's Rules - Alt-Tasha gets taken back into the prime timeline. For there to be an Alt-Tasha to begin with the divergent timelines created by the destruction of Neranda III and the disappearance of the Enterprise-C must still exist.

Same thing here: The Prime Timeline must exist in order for both Prime-Spock and Nero and the events surrounding the creation of the blackhole to exist to get kicked back in time to create a point of divergence.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Well, at least we know that he reproduced in the Prime timeline...
Yeah, cause I was really losing sleep over that one.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:48 PM   #47
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
Are you comparing ST09 time incusion to the Mirror Universe in trek?
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Old September 24 2013, 05:52 PM   #48
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
Are you comparing ST09 time incusion to the Mirror Universe in trek?
No, what he's saying is that ST09 is an alternate reality in the same way the Mirror Universe is an alternate reality. They both, run along with a near infinite number of parallel and alternate realities, run alongside the Prime reality.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:00 PM   #49
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
The Mirror Universe from TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", from several DS9 episodes and from ENT: "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the first proof of the existence of a parallel universe. On the other hand, we never get to see the point of divergence. The Mirror Universe may not have been created by a time travel. For all we can imagine, it may have been severed from our own universe in its early days. For some reason, it maintains close ties to our universe, which we would not normally expect because of the second law of thermodynamics that requires the separate universes to diverge increasingly over time. The Mirror Universe is a one-off phenomenon. The somewhat parallel development to the main timeline is not only dubious in real science. It does not comply either with what happens in most time travel incidents, where the changes accumulate (the "butterfly effect"), rather than lead to the birth of visually (and genetically?) identical characters in both universes. Hence, the Mirror Universe can't really serve as a prototype for what happens in "Star Trek (2009)".
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Old September 24 2013, 06:01 PM   #50
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

"alternate reality" is used in "In a Mirror, Darkly" by T'Pol to refer to the prime universe, a concurrently existing timeline to the mirror one.
Are you comparing ST09 time incusion to the Mirror Universe in trek?
No, what he's saying is that ST09 is an alternate reality in the same way the Mirror Universe is an alternate reality. They both, run along with a near infinite number of parallel and alternate realities, run alongside the Prime reality.
There is no proof anywhere that the mirror universe was "caused" or "created" by a time travel incursion. (which what happened in ST09)
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Old September 24 2013, 06:20 PM   #51
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Are you comparing ST09 time incusion to the Mirror Universe in trek?
No, what he's saying is that ST09 is an alternate reality in the same way the Mirror Universe is an alternate reality. They both, run along with a near infinite number of parallel and alternate realities, run alongside the Prime reality.
There is no proof anywhere that the mirror universe was "caused" or "created" by a time travel incursion. (which what happened in ST09)
And there's no proof it wasn't. And you're missing the forest for the trees:

If ST09 is purely the product of temporal incursion, then that definitely means it's a divergent temporal reality not an overwrite of the Prime temporal reality. Cause if it was an overwrite, the events that lead up to the temporal incursion will not have happened to create the rewritten history, therefore the rewritten history can not exist. For it to exist, the Prime timeline must exist and happen as we know it did to created the events that causes the temporal incursion.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:25 PM   #52
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

No, what he's saying is that ST09 is an alternate reality in the same way the Mirror Universe is an alternate reality. They both, run along with a near infinite number of parallel and alternate realities, run alongside the Prime reality.
There is no proof anywhere that the mirror universe was "caused" or "created" by a time travel incursion. (which what happened in ST09)
And there's no proof it wasn't. And you're missing the forest for the trees:

If ST09 is purely the product of temporal incursion, then that definitely means it's a divergent temporal reality not an overwrite of the Prime temporal reality. Cause if it was an overwrite, the events that lead up to the temporal incursion will not have happened to create the rewritten history, therefore the rewritten history can not exist. For it to exist, the Prime timeline must exist and happen as we know it did to created the events that causes the temporal incursion.
Bud, my head just exploded.

You are missing the tree because of the forrest

If Nero incursion was like every other time travel incursion we've seen in trek, the timeline from that point forward will be changed, not prior to it.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:27 PM   #53
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

I rather prefer the theory that timelines are not "created" but rather exist like a sequence of parallel tracks that on rare occasions parties may travel between.

That said, it's basically a semantic difference.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:30 PM   #54
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
If Nero incursion was like every other time travel incursion we've seen in trek, the timeline from that point forward will be changed, not prior to it.
Since we've never seen time travel occur by the methodology shown in '09 before, perhaps we shouldn't assume it works in a similar manner to any time travel we've seen before.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:47 PM   #55
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

DonIago wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
If Nero incursion was like every other time travel incursion we've seen in trek, the timeline from that point forward will be changed, not prior to it.
Since we've never seen time travel occur by the methodology shown in '09 before, perhaps we shouldn't assume it works in a similar manner to any time travel we've seen before.
Well, the method shouldn't matter.

Time travel to the past has occurred.

(love your siggy BTW )

Super-whamodine RED Matter black hole induced or from a temporal rift, it's simply just traveling back in time.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:18 PM   #56
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

There is no proof anywhere that the mirror universe was "caused" or "created" by a time travel incursion. (which what happened in ST09)
And there's no proof it wasn't. And you're missing the forest for the trees:

If ST09 is purely the product of temporal incursion, then that definitely means it's a divergent temporal reality not an overwrite of the Prime temporal reality. Cause if it was an overwrite, the events that lead up to the temporal incursion will not have happened to create the rewritten history, therefore the rewritten history can not exist. For it to exist, the Prime timeline must exist and happen as we know it did to created the events that causes the temporal incursion.
Bud, my head just exploded.

You are missing the tree because of the forrest

If Nero incursion was like every other time travel incursion we've seen in trek, the timeline from that point forward will be changed, not prior to it.
Except it's not like the others, it's a slip back and into divergent timelines. Same as what happened to the Defiant in "In a Mirror Darkly"--back and over; same as Yesterday's Enterprise--back and over. You keep forgetting: Nero changes the past in a way that affects his timeline--the prime timeline, then the timeline can't exist cause Nero doesn't exist, and if Nero doesn't exist he can't go back in time to cause the divergence.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:25 PM   #57
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

Indeed. It may be counterintuitive, but it's not unreasonable to think that some forms of time travel cause you to jump along your own timeline while others cause you to jump tracks.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:44 PM   #58
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

DonIago wrote: View Post
Indeed. It may be counterintuitive, but it's not unreasonable to think that some forms of time travel cause you to jump along your own timeline while others cause you to jump tracks.
Well we have examples of it from TNG and Enterprise of exactly that happening: Jumping from one temporal-reality to another while at the same time moving forward and back along the time-stream.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:53 PM   #59
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

And there's no proof it wasn't. And you're missing the forest for the trees:

If ST09 is purely the product of temporal incursion, then that definitely means it's a divergent temporal reality not an overwrite of the Prime temporal reality. Cause if it was an overwrite, the events that lead up to the temporal incursion will not have happened to create the rewritten history, therefore the rewritten history can not exist. For it to exist, the Prime timeline must exist and happen as we know it did to created the events that causes the temporal incursion.
Bud, my head just exploded.

You are missing the tree because of the forrest

If Nero incursion was like every other time travel incursion we've seen in trek, the timeline from that point forward will be changed, not prior to it.
Except it's not like the others, it's a slip back and into divergent timelines. Same as what happened to the Defiant in "In a Mirror Darkly"--back and over; same as Yesterday's Enterprise--back and over. You keep forgetting: Nero changes the past in a way that affects his timeline--the prime timeline, then the timeline can't exist cause Nero doesn't exist, and if Nero doesn't exist he can't go back in time to cause the divergence.
I'm not there bud.

That's like saying Nero couldn't have exsisted in the prime timeline because he went back in time and did something to affect his existance in that period of time.

IAMD is an alternate reality. Not caused by a time incursion. Same goes for Mirror, Mirror & all the DS9 Mirror eps.

Yesterday's Enterprise only could happen because that rift stayed open. The "C" was placed back in time from wence she came and everything was OK. We can therefor assume, that if she didn't make it back and Picard's Starfleet would have lost the war to the Klingons.

What's different about ST09 is, we don't know how the future was effected. Nero wasn't a "Hero" and didn't return.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:56 PM   #60
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Re: Timeline branching going forward *spoilers*

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Indeed. It may be counterintuitive, but it's not unreasonable to think that some forms of time travel cause you to jump along your own timeline while others cause you to jump tracks.
Well we have examples of it from TNG and Enterprise of exactly that happening: Jumping from one temporal-reality to another while at the same time moving forward and back along the time-stream.
No proof that that was a different timeline.
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