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Old September 24 2013, 05:33 PM   #1
KaraBear
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Equinox

We just finished watching Equinox. I hadn't seen it in a long time and it was honestly better than I remember. I actually really enjoyed Janeway being a badass in her persuit of Ransom.

I loved the scene in the mess hall when Max talks to B'Elanna and Tom gets all jealous


thoughts on the episode?
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Old September 24 2013, 05:42 PM   #2
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Re: Equinox

"I'm going to execute you in the most brutal way possible, if you don't tell me where your captain is so I can hunt him down and kill him for betraying humanity's principles!"

That should be under irony in the dictionary.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:49 PM   #3
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Re: Equinox

R. Star wrote: View Post
"I'm going to execute you in the most brutal way possible, if you don't tell me where your captain is so I can hunt him down and kill him for betraying humanity's principles!"

That should be under irony in the dictionary.
I think that was far from the "most brutal way possible" I can think of a few more brutal ways

Do you think she really would have killed him?

and honestly, was that as bad as what Sisko did in his persuit of Eddington?
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Old September 24 2013, 05:52 PM   #4
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Re: Equinox

Nah, Sisko gassed a whole planet. He should've been clapped in irons for that one. It's like a us officer gassing an Arabian village because he thinks there's a terrorist cell there.

Then again Sisko was never preachy about upholding humanity's principles in the same freaking episode he was going after his nemesis with a vendetta. Would Janeway have killed him? She was willing to kill that blueshirt if he didn't sell out his captain, so yes I thinks she would've. One of the few times Chakotay stands up to Janeway, but he picked a good time at least.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:56 PM   #5
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Re: Equinox

R. Star wrote: View Post
Nah, Sisko gassed a whole planet. He should've been clapped in irons for that one. It's like a us officer gassing an Arabian village because he thinks there's a terrorist cell there.

Then again Sisko was never preachy about upholding humanity's principles in the same freaking episode he was going after his nemesis with a vendetta. Would Janeway have killed him? She was willing to kill that blueshirt if he didn't sell out his captain, so yes I thinks she would've. One of the few times Chakotay stands up to Janeway, but he picked a good time at least.
yes he was, the whole time he was going after Eddington he was going on and on how he betrayed his uniform. He was just as preachy.

They both had the same vendetta, they were going after someone who betrayed Starfleet, the uniform, everything they stood for, and they both took it as a personal insult. They both went to extremes, made very questionable decisions, both had crewmembers questioning their behavior and actions
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Old September 24 2013, 06:00 PM   #6
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Re: Equinox

Well betraying duty and betraying humanity's principles, which were the charges Sisko and Janeway were using respectively are different. Subtlety so at times, but nevertheless.

The funny thing about this episode is... flash back to Year of Hell when Janeway had the busted up ship. Look at her irrational behavior then, and compare her to Ransom. Are they so different? If the combustible space slug had been dropped into Janeway's lap, would she really not have used it?
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Old September 24 2013, 06:08 PM   #7
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Re: Equinox

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well betraying duty and betraying humanity's principles, which were the charges Sisko and Janeway were using respectively are different. Subtlety so at times, but nevertheless.

The funny thing about this episode is... flash back to Year of Hell when Janeway had the busted up ship. Look at her irrational behavior then, and compare her to Ransom. Are they so different? If the combustible space slug had been dropped into Janeway's lap, would she really not have used it?
either way, they were going after someone for a betrayal

having just watched it, she considered ransom betraying stafleet and the uniform, betraying humanity falls under that umbrella.

in year of hell, I highly doubt she would stoop so low as to kill innocent beings. They had similar oportunities and never took them. Several times janeway has offered to self destruct voyager to help someone, she was willing to sacrifice her own life on multiple occasions. No way she would butcher innocent beings for her own gain
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Old September 24 2013, 06:18 PM   #8
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Re: Equinox

You don't call making a biological weapon to exterminate the Borg's enemies at cellular level in exchange for passage through Borg space butchering innocents for her own gain? All they did was have the audacity to defend themselves and included Voyager in that only after they tried tractoring, beaming away and boarding their ship and then were seen collaborating with the enemy that invaded them. Not that different from what Ransom faced. Killing beings to get his crew out of danger and closer to home.

I was talking about how Ransom justified the first space slug already being dead. I could easily see Janeway making the same justification... and it's a slippery slope once you engage upon it. What if the Krenim were still attacking and they needed two more to get past their space? Would she really say those two were worth the rest of her crew's lives? She twisted herself around so much with the Borg alliance, I could see her doing the same again very easily. She was already irrational in her decision making to the point of threatening to deactivate the Doctor, chewing out Chakotay for a birthday gift and thinking Voyager is conspiring against her.

As much as I poke fun at Janeway being horribly bipolar and inconsistent, nah I don't think she's evil. Heck I don't think Ransom was. I do think all three our our intrepid Starfleet captains(including Sisko since he was brought up earlier) have made dubious moral choices. Really if anyone we've talked about was evil it was that Max fellow. He seemed the most unrepentant about the whole thing.
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Old September 24 2013, 06:47 PM   #9
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Re: Equinox

R. Star wrote: View Post
You don't call making a biological weapon to exterminate the Borg's enemies at cellular level in exchange for passage through Borg space butchering innocents for her own gain? All they did was have the audacity to defend themselves and included Voyager in that only after they tried tractoring, beaming away and boarding their ship and then were seen collaborating with the enemy that invaded them. Not that different from what Ransom faced. Killing beings to get his crew out of danger and closer to home.

I was talking about how Ransom justified the first space slug already being dead. I could easily see Janeway making the same justification... and it's a slippery slope once you engage upon it. What if the Krenim were still attacking and they needed two more to get past their space? Would she really say those two were worth the rest of her crew's lives? She twisted herself around so much with the Borg alliance, I could see her doing the same again very easily. She was already irrational in her decision making to the point of threatening to deactivate the Doctor, chewing out Chakotay for a birthday gift and thinking Voyager is conspiring against her.

As much as I poke fun at Janeway being horribly bipolar and inconsistent, nah I don't think she's evil. Heck I don't think Ransom was. I do think all three our our intrepid Starfleet captains(including Sisko since he was brought up earlier) have made dubious moral choices. Really if anyone we've talked about was evil it was that Max fellow. He seemed the most unrepentant about the whole thing.
at the time 8472 were not "innocent" they were dangerous and the enemy. Voyager hailed 8472 but they were ignored. The only contact they had with them was Harry being attacked and Kes getting threatening mental messages. That is very different than the lifeforms that Ransom encountered

chewing out chakotay for a birthday gift? she was completely right! they had such low energy and resources the matter from that watch would be used on something much more important than a gift. She wasn't yelling, or mean about it, just very matter of fact. How would it appear to the crew, to someone who is wearing a burned and torn uniform, someone who has worn through their boots, who need some medicine, and janeway is wearing something as silly as that watch.

as I said before she had oportunities before but never took them. She would not even use the dead "slug"

yes, Max was really the worst here, just about everyone else had a change of heart at the end.

overall, I'm not saying that I think she was right in her persuit of Ransom, or her attempt to kill the cylon, whether she was bluffing or not, anymore than I think that Sisko was right in destroying those colonies. But I do find it interesting that Janeway gets all the criticsm here for doing the same thing Sisko did simply because it was Janeway and it was Voyager
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Old September 24 2013, 07:02 PM   #10
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Re: Equinox

How was the 8472 supposed to respond? He wasn't even on his ship. Voyager hails it, gives them two seconds to reply, then tries tractoring it, beaming it away and boards it. Yeah if I came upon a group of strange looking people digging in my house, I'd give a hostile reaction too. Especially later on when they're helping my greatest enemy. Dangerous? Sure I'll give you that. Enemy? Only because Janeway picked sides because she needed something from the Borg. So yes, they were innocent before Janeway started annihilating them at the cellular level because she needed something. Which ironically enough the deal with the devil wasn't honored, surprise.

So you're saying Janeway wouldn't use that dead slug(if you have a better term let me know) to save her crew from a Krenim attack? She would think it's better to die that defile that dead person? I don't agree at all. We've seen several times she's guilt ridden over her choice to strand them there, and she'll twist herself in circles to justify questionable choices. As damaged as Equinox was, Ransom probably came to the same choice, with Max encouraging it all the way. They were under attack, under threat, and needed to get away. After that, I bet Ransom resisted using another one until they were under attack again, then did it again. Maybe by this time Max was synthesizing more behind his back... well it's done, is he not to use it. He can't fire Max since he's already short handed, so they're going home and Ransom seemed ready to take responsibility for the choices of his crew at that time. I don't think Janeway's immune to that sort of slippery slope at all. She killed Tuvix after all simply because she liked Neelix and Tuvok more. It's the same sort of situation where you're weighing two bads against each other. Though Janeway didn't have an evil redhsirt whispering poison into his ears. Just Neelix.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:05 PM   #11
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Re: Equinox

Eh...in it's own right, I know deep inside that it is one of the good episodes.

However, I didn't like watching Janeway behave like that. I didn't like how her and Chakotay temporarily turned on one other. I think their behavior in this episode contradicts a lot of previous character development for both characters.
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Old September 24 2013, 07:11 PM   #12
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Re: Equinox

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Eh...in it's own right, I know deep inside that it is one of the good episodes.

However, I didn't like watching Janeway behave like that. I didn't like how her and Chakotay temporarily turned on one other. I think their behavior in this episode contradicts a lot of previous character development for both characters.
I think that's one of the things that made it interesting, that it was such a contrast to her behavior

and it's not like Chakotay never questioned her orders or disagreed with her before
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Old September 24 2013, 08:37 PM   #13
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Re: Equinox

Yes it is.

If she was playing good cop, bad cop, Kathy carried it a little far by sending Chuckles to his room after he did exactly what she needed him to do to stop Noah from getting eaten.

Sisko was ordered to take Eddington to trial and/or jail.

Janeway agreed to feed Ransom to space dolphns.

This is how that is forgivable: She lied.

Kirk lied all the time.

Picard didn't.

Janeway is somewhere between those two.

(The meat in a Picard/Kirk sandwhich?)

Eddington spent a year and a half as Sisko's head of security playng him like a fiddle.

Ranson told terrible lies that couldn't stand on their own merit for a day and a half.

Sisko had a right to be angry becuase he was made to look like a fool.

Janeway, not so much, because she figured out Ransom's game without being pantsed.

However it was Janeway who was the one sharpening her knife to commit murder?

Quite odd, no?
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Old September 24 2013, 08:40 PM   #14
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Re: Equinox

Space Dolphins... is that better than the space slugs term I was using?
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Old September 24 2013, 08:43 PM   #15
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Re: Equinox

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yes it is.

If she was playing good cop, bad cop, Kathy carried it a little far by sending Chuckles to his room after he did exactly what she needed him to do to stop Noah from getting eaten.

Sisko was ordered to take Eddington to trial and/or jail.

Janeway agreed to feed Ransom to space dolphns.

This is how that is forgivable: She lied.

Kirk lied all the time.

Picard didn't.

Janeway is somewhere between those two.

(The meat in a Picard/Kirk sandwhich?)

Eddington spent a year and a half as Sisko's head of security playng him like a fiddle.

Ranson told terrible lies that couldn't stand on their own merit for a day and a half.

Sisko had a right to be angry becuase he was made to look like a fool.

Janeway, not so much, because she figured out Ransom's game without being pantsed.

However it was Janeway who was the one sharpening her knife to commit murder?

Quite odd, no?
but she didn't commit any murder, sisko did on a large scale
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