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Old September 24 2013, 01:51 AM   #16
Yanks
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

The Prime Directive is rather ambiguous but what it comes down to is, do screw around with pre-warp civilizations and don't interfere in anyone's internal affairs.

So if they're warp capable, you get all the help you need in case of medical crisis or natural disaster... if not, you're screwed.
Well, I know Beverly gave Picard and earful on a couple occasions about this. Don't have the episodes at my fingertips.
So did Pulaski in season 2's Pen Pals when they were discussing the ramifications of the PD and diseases came up. I'd have to agree with them.

There are situations which you shouldn't involve yourself, but to say just because there are some, you shouldn't get involved in any, is kinda absurd.
Yup. All the more reason Archer should have helped.
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Old September 24 2013, 02:06 AM   #17
Yanks
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

bullethead wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I imagine this isn't going to be a very popular opinion, but...

I almost think people get too hung up on the use of the word "evolution" and essentially end up overlooking the forest for the trees.

My understanding of the Prime Directive...which granted doesn't exist here...is that the Federation shouldn't be interfering in the development of civilizations.

By that standard then, all that really matters is that the Valakians are confronted with a disease they're unable to cure, and that if Our Heroes were to cure them it would (possibly) alter the development of the civilizations on the planet. It's obviously hard to say for sure...for all we know the Valakians could develop a cure the day after Our Heroes leave.

If the Federation really believes in a policy of non-interference, then it doesn't ultimately matter whether the Menk are there or not. Non-interfering in this case means not allowing the Valakians to persevere through means that they couldn't develop without Our Heroes' assistance.

Hell, it could just as easily be argued that the virus has a right to exist and would ultimately "evolve" to be the dominant life form on the planet...curing the Valakians means committing genocide at that point, if you really want to look at it that way.

In any case, it's a mistake to approach the Prime Directive as a moral issue, because adhering to the PD ultimately means you have to leave your morality at the door. Heck, the beginning of Into Darkness makes this abundantly clear.
So... you're saying that the good guys should be complicit in genocide of sapient species that haven't reached a certain level of technology for no reason? Especially when, in this case, noninterference would likely result in the end of coexistence between two species and the genocide of one by the more advanced species that just got told "we think the other guys are going to advance once you're all dead and gone, so we're not going to help you"?

Also, the lesson I got from the beginning of into Darkness is that the Prime Directive is a morally reprehensible regulation that compels captains to let species die from easily solvable natural disasters. It honestly made me wonder why they kept going on about the Admiral being evil for militarizing the fleet when Starfleet was letting people die horrible deaths for no reason.
I don't know. I would say that STID just fuels the everlasting Prime Directive debate. The same one that's been going on for almost 50 years.

Pike's main complaint was that Kirk wasn't truthful in his reports. I don't believe his actions saving Spock would have lost him the seat.

Did Picard get canned because of what happened in 'Who Watches the Watchers' or 'Insurrection'?
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Old September 24 2013, 02:33 AM   #18
R. Star
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

That was one of the parts of ID I liked. That they did save those people rather than letting them die. And there were actual consequences for it, however short lasting they were.
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Old September 24 2013, 02:37 AM   #19
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Because why the heck wouldn't you save them? You'd save an injured dog or an animal species about to go extinct.
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Old September 24 2013, 02:59 AM   #20
R. Star
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

teacake wrote: View Post
Because why the heck wouldn't you save them? You'd save an injured dog or an animal species about to go extinct.
From Time and Again

JANEWAY: You have no idea what the consequences might be once you involve yourself.
PARIS: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
JANEWAY: You're not to warn these people. That's an order.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:00 AM   #21
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

R. Star wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Because why the heck wouldn't you save them? You'd save an injured dog or an animal species about to go extinct.
From Time and Again

JANEWAY: You have no idea what the consequences might be once you involve yourself.
PARIS: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
JANEWAY: You're not to warn these people. That's an order.
And then the Federation was the villains
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Old September 24 2013, 03:06 AM   #22
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

I hated this episode. The premise was stupid.
It's ridiculous to suggest that the only way the Menk could advance would be to shove the Valakians off a cliff.

It occurred to me that Phlox could have told the Valakians to step back and give the Menk room to develop independently.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:18 AM   #23
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Skywalker wrote: View Post
The episode was both poorly conceptualized and poorly executed (from a writing standpoint; I thought the acting was fine). It's just as absurdly overrated as "A Night in Sickbay" is underrated (not that I think ANiS is all that great, but I don't think it's quite as awful as its reputation suggests, either).
The only thing wrong with "A Night in Sickbay" is it doesn't end with the whole cast singing an episode recap to the tune of "One Night in Bangkok", Bollywood-style.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:31 AM   #24
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

bullethead wrote: View Post
So... you're saying that the good guys should be complicit in genocide of sapient species that haven't reached a certain level of technology for no reason? Especially when, in this case, noninterference would likely result in the end of coexistence between two species and the genocide of one by the more advanced species that just got told "we think the other guys are going to advance once you're all dead and gone, so we're not going to help you"?

Also, the lesson I got from the beginning of into Darkness is that the Prime Directive is a morally reprehensible regulation that compels captains to let species die from easily solvable natural disasters. It honestly made me wonder why they kept going on about the Admiral being evil for militarizing the fleet when Starfleet was letting people die horrible deaths for no reason.
The Federation doesn't have the resources to save every single non-warp-capable species out there from every disaster they can and will face, and even if they could, they would then be indirectly responsible for the consequences of their interference. If you do "the right thing" and save a planet of people who then become bent on conquering the galaxy, are you willing to take responsibility for cleaning up the mess you created?

The Prime Directive isn't about morality, and if it is, it's certainly not about -human- morality, nor should it be, because if there is a universal morality it most certainly isn't defined exclusively by humanity. It's about Starfleet trying to do what it thinks is for the best with regards to advancing civilizations on a galactic scale, and creating a policy that frees its captains from needing to make decisions that can't possibly take all of the variables into account. What's the longest we ever saw Our Heroes studying a pre-warp civilization? Do you really think that's enough time to understand all of the dynamics in play on an entire planet??

Given that we clearly see that Kirk's interference in ID -has- altered the evolution of that civilization, I think an argument could be made that in a sense they -have- died. Whatever they might have been is no longer what they will be. Is that better than being dead? Well, maybe, but it's clearly not as optimal a solution as them being saved without becoming aware of extraterrestrials.

Hell, how would we feel if aliens showed up on Earth one day and decided that dolphins were meant to be the dominant species...so they were going to actively give the dolphins a hand by wiping out humanity? Probably not so hot.

It's all well and good to say Our Heroes should interfere until you consider how the species that (inadvertently or otherwise) suffer from that interference might feel about it.
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Old September 24 2013, 04:26 AM   #25
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

The way I see it is, Archer and crew were morally and ethically bound to help the Valakians. To willingly withhold a cure for a disease that you know is killing people is to become responsible for everyone who dies from that disease.

And in the end, the Valakians ASKED for help. So even if there had been a Prime Directive, that alone would have rendered it irrelevant. The PD allows one to render aid to anyone who asks for it. The Valakians may not have had warp capability, but they were already aware of Earth, and thus the PD goes out the window.

To withhold aid because the Valakians MIGHT one day become some kind of evil empire is just casting at straws. No one has any idea what that species will evolve into. The future is irrelevant; all that matters is the present.

This is also why I really couldn't give two shits what happens to the Menk. The Menk are not dying; they are not being struck by a deadly plague. They don't need help. The Valakians do. To deliberately allow - even encourage - the Valakians to die because the Menk supposedly deserve to live more than they do, is IN ITSELF interference. It's choosing one species over another. Archer is already intefering even if he does nothing!
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Old September 24 2013, 05:20 AM   #26
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

It's like seeing a pregnant woman trapped in a burning building. To save her all you'd have to do is lift an object that's pinning her down before the flames get to her, with little risk to yourself.

With the Prime Directive not only would you not do it, but you'd call it the moral choice because that kid could grow up to be Hitler.
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Old September 24 2013, 11:09 AM   #27
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

R. Star wrote: View Post
JANEWAY: You have no idea what the consequences might be once you involve yourself.
PARIS: The consequences would have to be better than mass destruction.
JANEWAY: You're not to warn these people. That's an order.
But then again, the bitch also gave Borg the means to assimilate Species 8472 and shifted the entire balance of power in the Delta quadrant and beyond... And never got court-martialed for it.

And for some reason I actually like Scorpion I & II.. Go figure.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:29 PM   #28
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

I dunno...I guess I'm left feeling that whether or not it's okay to violate the Prime Directive is rather akin to the issues brought up in the Futurama episode "Godfellas".

Still love this line...it applies to playing God, but might just as well apply to violating the Prime Directive - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all."
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Old September 24 2013, 04:35 PM   #29
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

Hm... let's maybe please not use the "b-word", mmkay?
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Old September 24 2013, 04:41 PM   #30
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Re: Dear Doctor... How could you do this?

What do boobies have to do with this?
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