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Old September 23 2013, 06:55 AM   #46
BK613
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

In casual conversation, both modes were used when I served (US Navy). Any differentiation was whether you were speaking of the command (peeps serving aboard) or speaking of the object (the vessel itself.)

Of the command:
"Enterprise has been ordered to the Neutral Zone."

Of the object:
"The Enterprise has sustained heavy damage."

Never a hard rule though.
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Old September 23 2013, 07:59 AM   #47
C.E. Evans
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
So, you don't correct people who are wrong? You just let them be wrong? If someone said 2+2=5, then that's just their custom?? How can you be so apathetic about mistakes? Do you not care about people?
That's getting melodramatic over something extremely trivial. You repeatedly keep claiming that a widely used form of address as being wrong, when there isn't an actual law that says it is. As such, you're really fighting windmills here.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
What's to move on from? The OP's question was answered. The fact that C.E. Evans wants to say people have the right to make mistakes and call them "customs" is intriguing, and I was hoping to follow up on it.
Once again, it's not a mistake, just a different manner of address.

So, why the Enterprise and sometimes the Defiant, but only once (that I recall) the Voyager? DS9 was usually just "the station", which makes sense, because it's one of many and the characters were referencing the station that was of primary interest to them. But would it ever be called the Deep Space 9? Why or why not? Is Enterprise a special name that demands the specific article? Why not just an Enterprise? There were many of them, after all. Why would all of them be the Enterprise? Wouldn't that be confusing?
The majority of people couldn't care less. Ships are addressed both with and without "the" in their names. It's unimportant to the general public and not something it gets upset about.
BK613 wrote:
In casual conversation, both modes were used when I served (US Navy). Any differentiation was whether you were speaking of the command (peeps serving aboard) or speaking of the object (the vessel itself.)

Of the command:
"Enterprise has been ordered to the Neutral Zone."

Of the object:
"The Enterprise has sustained heavy damage."

Never a hard rule though.
It's this in a nutshell, Pavonis. No one is a bad person and going to be sent to prison or Hell if they address a ship with "the." Some people may do it, some people may not. It's just that simple and not something to get all worked up about.
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Old September 23 2013, 03:49 PM   #48
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That's getting melodramatic over something extremely trivial.
Well, what did you expect on a message board? i think anyone who gets melodramatic over nontrivial issues on a message board would get better results by focusing their efforts elsewhere. Naturally that just leaves trivial issues!

You repeatedly keep claiming that a widely used form of address as being wrong, when there isn't an actual law that says it is. As such, you're really fighting windmills here.
No law? What about grammar? Languages do have rules.

Once again, it's not a mistake, just a different manner of address.
I say it is a mistake, the C.E. Evans

The majority of people couldn't care less. Ships are addressed both with and without "the" in their names. It's unimportant to the general public and not something it gets upset about.
The majority of people are of average and below average intelligence; why should we let them set the standards?

It's this in a nutshell, Pavonis. No one is a bad person and going to be sent to prison or Hell if they address a ship with "the."
How do you know? Maybe judges are sending people to prison for just that rule violation all the time. Maybe I'm saving you from a bad experience by enlightening you! You're welcome.
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Old September 23 2013, 07:09 PM   #49
C.E. Evans
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
That's getting melodramatic over something extremely trivial.
Well, what did you expect on a message board?
Not histrionics.

At this point, this conversation was way run its course and has changed nothing, nor will it ever. The general public has historically addressed ships with "the" as part of their names and will continue to do so regardless of what you think.
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Old September 23 2013, 08:15 PM   #50
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

I think I have a new mission in life, the C.E. Evans; thank you for giving me a goal to work towards! I will fix the world - starting with grammar!

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Old September 23 2013, 09:34 PM   #51
C.E. Evans
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Be sure to give me updates on your progress.
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Old September 29 2013, 05:00 AM   #52
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

I'd luv to be able to go visit THE Deep Space 9 space station.

Alas, it'll never happen in my time.

That coming from THE DaveyNY.

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Old October 23 2013, 02:56 PM   #53
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Christopher wrote: View Post
One more time: TOS's usage was either wrong to begin with, or an outdated usage that's no longer valid. Either way, it's not something to cling to. The correct naval practice, at least in US usage, is not to use the definite article except before "USS." It can be "the USS Enterprise," but it should not be "the Enterprise."
Under what basis do you claim this?
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Old October 23 2013, 03:58 PM   #54
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Actually I may have gotten it backward, but the information I can find is conflicting. For instance:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=605089

This thread contains conflicting claims.

According to The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed., "the carrier Enterprise" is correct but not "the USS Enterprise." "The Enterprise" is also correct, but The Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World prefers "USS Enterprise (CVN-65)" (no "the").
And:

I'm a maritime lawyer and am in correspondence with shipowners, brokers, and insurers every day. The standard style in the world of commercial shipping is to use the definite article before the ship's name.
But:

This one really bugs an old Navy man, like me. As everybody knows, a vessel is alive. She is female‼ and as beautiful, comforting, protective of her men, and lively in her actions and quirks as any other woman of substance.

Whenever a Navy man is asked aboard which ship he sailed, he would reply “Hornet,” or “USS Hornet,” but NEVER “the Hornet.”

Indeed, you would never refer to your wife as “the Mary.” Just “Mary”! Thus to ships of the line.
Conversely:

USS Yorktown is right, and the USS Yorktown is wrong, but Yorktown is wrong and the Yorktown is right.

It would be correct to say, "He was a fresh young Ensign serving aboard USS Yorktown, ..." or to say "He was a fresh young Ensign serving aboard the Yorktown, ..." but don't mix parts of both and include both "the" and "USS".
Elsewhere, I found this:

http://www.titanicebook.com/terminology.html

The custom of using the definite article before the names of ships is very old. When Shakespeare wrote, "Master of the Tyger", he was following a well established tradition. Melville, Conrad and most others followed suit.

If there are any rules, they are something like this---
  • All large commercial ships take the definite article. "The California had finished discharging her cargo." (Richard Dana).
  • Large warships usually take the definite article, but it is often omitted for brevity in reports and dispatches. The same applies to verse. "Collingwood, in the Royal Sovereign". (Robert Southey). Alternatively, "They rose near Iceland, where Compass Rose was sunk." (Nicholas Monsarrat). "Sent up Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock and Golden Gain. (Rudyard Kipling)
  • Yachts and small craft generally do not take the definite article. Perhaps this is because of the more intimate relationship we can have with them. Maybe the Saucy Sal seems pretentious. "She could see no sign of Tzu Hang". (Miles Smeaton). An exception might be made for Joshua Slocum, who always referred to his immortal vessel as the Spray and rightly so!
So there doesn't seem to be a fixed, universal rule. Some say the article should be used, some say it shouldn't. So that means neither "the Enterprise" or "Enterprise" is definitively wrong. Customs vary between different people and different times. Commercial ships take the definite article, but some naval veterans say their ships should never be referred to by the definite article while others say they do it all the time. Basically it seems to come down to a matter of preference, or what scans better in a particular sentence.
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Old October 23 2013, 04:49 PM   #55
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Christopher wrote: View Post
So there doesn't seem to be a fixed, universal rule. Some say the article should be used, some say it shouldn't. So that means neither "the Enterprise" or "Enterprise" is definitively wrong. Customs vary between different people and different times. Commercial ships take the definite article, but some naval veterans say their ships should never be referred to by the definite article while others say they do it all the time. Basically it seems to come down to a matter of preference, or what scans better in a particular sentence.
Damn....

That's pretty complete.

A little wrench to add...

There is a Navy ship named "The Sullivans"...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_The_Sullivans_(DDG-68))

Here we can have our cake and eat it too!
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Old November 8 2013, 12:07 AM   #56
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Watched Shuttlepod One tonight, Reed says "The crew of The Enterprise" at one point (though it came after other sentences such as "The Starship Enterprise might...." and "The brave Enterprise Crew..." so the actor probably just forgot.

I have no problem with the references to Saratoga and Reliant, etc, but when it comes to our most fabled ship.....well, to paraphrase another, long running show.

"You may be AN Enterprise, but this is THE Enterprise, the definitive article, you might say..."

If they didn't want the "The" used every time then they should name their ships Sarah or Sammy or something.....
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Old November 10 2013, 01:26 AM   #57
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
i realise they wanted to differentiate between the prequel and the original and TNG but its almost like they go out of their way to call the ship 'Enterprise' only...never 'the enterprise'

did anyone ever utter 'the Enterprise' even once in the show?
Sure it was but it was 'Enterprise' and not 'USS Enterprise', the NX class ships were built (pre federation of planets), there were 5 NX class ships built.
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Old November 17 2013, 03:57 AM   #58
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
I'm surprised how attached some people are to "the". Do you all refer to yourselves as "the [your name]"? No? Why not? Then why should Enterprise - a proper noun, like your name - be different?
Because people aren't ships?
So? Do you say you're going to "the Chicago", or visiting "the London"? Those aren't people either, but they're proper nouns. Is it that hard to grasp?
Vernacular with:
Oceans, seas, rivers, deserts, mountain ranges, cultural regions, large forests, nicknames

Without:
Lakes, creeks, springs, specific mountains, parks, most countries, states, cities

Follow?

The Atlantic, The Pacific, etc
The Mediterranean, The Baltic, The Caspian
The Mississippi, The Amazon, The Nile
The Sahara, The Gobi
The Rockies, The Andes, The Himalayas
The South, The Mid-West, The Mid-East, The Rhineland
The Amazon (rainforest this time)
The Big Apple, The Windy City, The Outback

Those are still proper nouns, so yes it IS that hard.

"Going on a road trip from Chicago, driving through mid-west, and staying a night at Grand Canyon before backpacking in Mojave."

Can you honestly say that sentence is either proper or natural?
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Old November 17 2013, 04:07 AM   #59
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

And as we've established, the vernacular for the usage of "the" before ship names goes both ways. Some feel it should be used, others feel it shouldn't. There's no universal consensus. But clearly the makers of Trek changed their preferences somewhere along the line.

And it's not just Trek ship names. Is it Batman or the Batman? Different writers seem to have different preferences. Sometimes it seems that "the Batman" is used by people less familiar with him and "Batman" by those who know him personally. On the other hand, there was a whole animated series called The Batman in which he was routinely referenced with the article -- and, symmetrically, his foe who's usually called the Joker was known simply as Joker.

Come to think of it, why is it "the Joker" and "the Riddler" and "the Penguin" but not "the Catwoman?"
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Old November 17 2013, 06:08 PM   #60
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Re: was NX01 ever referred to as 'The' Enterprise?

WarpCore wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Because people aren't ships?
So? Do you say you're going to "the Chicago", or visiting "the London"? Those aren't people either, but they're proper nouns. Is it that hard to grasp?
Vernacular with:
Oceans, seas, rivers, deserts, mountain ranges, cultural regions, large forests, nicknames

Without:
Lakes, creeks, springs, specific mountains, parks, most countries, states, cities

Follow?

The Atlantic, The Pacific, etc
The Mediterranean, The Baltic, The Caspian
The Mississippi, The Amazon, The Nile
The Sahara, The Gobi
The Rockies, The Andes, The Himalayas
The South, The Mid-West, The Mid-East, The Rhineland
The Amazon (rainforest this time)
The Big Apple, The Windy City, The Outback

Those are still proper nouns, so yes it IS that hard.

"Going on a road trip from Chicago, driving through mid-west, and staying a night at Grand Canyon before backpacking in Mojave."

Can you honestly say that sentence is either proper or natural?
Have you ever visited the New England?
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