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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 21 2013, 06:59 PM   #166
Bad Thoughts
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

^Am I missing something: is Khan a robot? Just because he is liable to fly into a fit of rage, overwhelming his judgement, does not mean he should do it every time and in every situation. Indeed, he shows at other points that he is willing do some cost analysis, when he leaves the Enterprise after their first encounter. Indeed, if he's being inconsistent, maybe taking the bait that last time was the real inconsistency, not fleeing after the first battle or leaving Kirk behind.
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Old September 21 2013, 07:07 PM   #167
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
OpenMaw wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Yes it is. But we've already been over this.
No it isn't. The character explains his actions right there in the scene.
So?

From Wiki (emphasis mine):

A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word "pothole," is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
no, it's a character flaw.
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Old September 21 2013, 10:10 PM   #168
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
no, it's a character flaw.
Irresolute neurosis was never an established part of Khan's bio.

The whole sequence of events was a shark with freakin' lasers moment. And it was a plot hole.
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Old September 22 2013, 12:12 AM   #169
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
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Old September 22 2013, 12:20 AM   #170
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
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Old September 22 2013, 07:30 AM   #171
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
And that's why Shatner's famous scream of Khan's name is made fun of. Not just for the cheesiness of it but the fact that it just makes no damn sense whatsoever.
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Old September 22 2013, 07:44 AM   #172
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
no, it's a character flaw.
Blasphemy. Khan is superior. He has no flaws. TWOK not only left a plot hole the size of Rhode Island leading to the planet's core, it was burnt on the stake by the Catholic church for canon violation.
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Old September 22 2013, 12:23 PM   #173
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
Well he was able to design weapons and starships in STiD...
Yeah. I'm not sure how that works.

Anyway, the Genesis device is a lot more complex, I guess, than regular weapons.

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Except when Kirk taunts him a second time, he flies right into one of the most obvious "I'm baiting you, its a trap" situations in movie history. So, it is inconsistent because he reacts in two COMPLETELY different ways to Kirk's taunts.
Not necessarily. In the second case, Kirk could get away forever and not die.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Irresolute neurosis was never an established part of Khan's bio.
Not in Space Seed, but a lot of time has passed on that crap world. He's a changed man, clearly.

The whole sequence of events was a shark with freakin' lasers moment. And it was a plot hole.
You saying so doesn't make it so. It's a matter of interpretation.

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
And that's why Shatner's famous scream of Khan's name is made fun of. Not just for the cheesiness of it but the fact that it just makes no damn sense whatsoever.
He can still be pissed at Khan, regardless of knowing he has a way out.
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Old September 22 2013, 12:50 PM   #174
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
And that's why Shatner's famous scream of Khan's name is made fun of. Not just for the cheesiness of it but the fact that it just makes no damn sense whatsoever.

Completely disagree. Kirk knew he had an out but COULD NOT reveal this to Khan, thus the scream. It makes perfect sense.

Let's play this another way:
Khan: "Buried alive....."
Kirk: "No worries, up there Mr. Singh! I've got Spock hiding Enterprise on the other side of Regula, fixing her up as we speak. Give me an hour and we'll be rescued!"
Khan to Joachim: "Take us around the planet"
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Old September 22 2013, 01:01 PM   #175
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
And that's why Shatner's famous scream of Khan's name is made fun of. Not just for the cheesiness of it but the fact that it just makes no damn sense whatsoever.

Completely disagree. Kirk knew he had an out but COULD NOT reveal this to Khan, thus the scream. It makes perfect sense.

Let's play this another way:
Khan: "Buried alive....."
Kirk: "No worries, up there Mr. Singh! I've got Spock hiding Enterprise on the other side of Regula, fixing her up as we speak. Give me an hour and we'll be rescued!"
Khan to Joachim: "Take us around the planet"
Actually you just pointed out another problem: How the hell did the Enterprise avoid Khan for an hour? Both ships would have known where the other was. Khan had the ship that wasn't shot full of holes. He couldn't look at a scanner and see what they were doing: "Oh they're circling the planetoid, we'll just pick up speed and catch up to them". Enterprise should have been fragged 5 minutes after Khan's little buried alive spiel.

The level of incompetence (see: stupidity) evidence by Khan and his people should have made it impossible for them to get out of the Ceti Alpha star-system, much less pilot that Reliant.
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Old September 22 2013, 01:04 PM   #176
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Khan definitely wasn't working on all thrusters.
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Old September 22 2013, 01:13 PM   #177
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Essentially, if Khan beams up Kirk then tortures and kills him the movie is over. So for three minutes they needed to change Khan's goal.

Call it what you will, but they wrote themselves into a corner.
Yeppers. Not only that they killed the impact of the scream and the "threat" by having Kirk know the whole time they had a way out.
I've always thought the scream was 100% warranted. Kirk had just had his ship attacked, witnessed many deaths and injuries on his ship, a close friend of his lose a relative, had to take down a load of corpses that had their throats slit, see a fellow starfleet officer kill someone with a phaser before committing suicide, and see another close friend go crazy before a rather unpleasant creature emerges from his ear. And had his own son come at him with a knife.

Then the guy responsible for all mayhem this taunts him about it in a rather sneering fashion just to rub his nose in it.

Enterprise not as damaged as he's letting on or not, I'd be pretty fucking pissed at this dude by now
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Old September 22 2013, 01:36 PM   #178
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

I think Kirk was still worried about what was going to happen to the Enterprise in his absence.
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Old September 22 2013, 01:50 PM   #179
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

For all the flaws I find in The Wrath of Khan, I still consider it too be a great movie because I have a great time whenever I watch it. Much like Star Trek Into Darkness.
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Old September 22 2013, 06:30 PM   #180
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Agreed, it's still a massively entertaining movie all these years later, as is STID
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