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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 21 2013, 11:23 PM   #16
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Ln X wrote: View Post
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Meh, Spock Prime is a repeat offender then for this sort of thing: Kirk, McCoy, Valeris. All three were melded with without consent.

In short: another case of "Oh, Spock Prime had to do it to <inset plot contrivance>". "Nu Spock broke Vulcan law (which we really don't know if he did or didn't, but but...uh fuck Abrams!"
Let's ignore this 'plot inconsistency- let's blame JJ Abrams' thing.

In each and every case of Prime Spock performing mind melds it was either to save the day, find important information or help his friends overcome mental afflictions (I'm thinking of The Return of the Archons). He had a task to perform and he may have broken his race's code of conduct for mind melds, I don't know, but it served a function.

In fact I think the only questionable use of Prime Spock mind melding was transfering his katra to McCoy. That's more than wacky, that's messed up- moving your soul to a host! However McCoy was a friend of Spock's so that somewhat mitigates it.

Nu Spock had no valid reason for mind melding with Pike, save for vain curiosity.
* Spock wipes Kirk's memory of Rayna to save him the pain. That serves no purpose. And come STV we find out that Kirk never wants he pain taken away.

* Spock forces his katra on McCoy. An act that cause side effects that gets McCoy arrested and facing a life time in a mental hospital. And if Kirk hadn't recovered Spock's body? Sorry Bones, see you on visiting day.

* Spock forcibly restrains a struggling Valeris who was refusing to answer questions. at the time there were fans that raged that that scene was (basically) a rape scene played out in front of the main characters with Kirk demanding information as she screamed out.

In sort: It's a not a damn bit of difference. Oh wait..yes there is: it's in an Abrams movie.
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Old September 21 2013, 11:57 PM   #17
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

* Spock wipes Kirk's memory of Rayna to save him the pain. That serves no purpose. And come STV we find out that Kirk never wants he pain taken away.

* Spock forces his katra on McCoy. An act that cause side effects that gets McCoy arrested and facing a life time in a mental hospital. And if Kirk hadn't recovered Spock's body? Sorry Bones, see you on visiting day.

* Spock forcibly restrains a struggling Valeris who was refusing to answer questions. at the time there were fans that raged that that scene was (basically) a rape scene played out in front of the main characters with Kirk demanding information as she screamed out.
Rayna was probably one of those humanoids who Kirk thought was 'the one', so it's a clear case of Spock believing his intentions are right but not really thinking through what would be best for his friend.

But I do agree with your assessment of Spock mind melding with McCoy and the damage done to McCoy. The way I see it's a case of character assassination upon poor old Spock! That was a bad idea period, but sadly a necessary evil to get Kirk and the crew back to the genesis planet.

As for the third case there were some high stakes involved. Chancellor Gorkon was assassinated and a new war looked possible. Lives were on the line and Spock, angry by Valeris' betrayal, forcibly assaults her mind to find out the perpetrators. But that's the point, in that situation it's a case of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. It's a DS9 moment of sorts but I like that, I appreciate that controversial aspect because it serves a point. That's Star Trek at its finest IMO.

Likewise in STID a little character assassination happens to Spock when he performed that mind meld on Pike. It was stupid, immoral and reckless and cheesed me off in the same manner as Prime Spock transferring his katra to McCoy. What were you thinking Spock?

Every series has had moments of character assassination or instances which totally destroy a character's credibility. But I'm a forgiving sort and that's why I rather enjoyed Nu Spock talking about his emotions with Uhura, despite him mentioning his mind meld with Pike- which was a douche thing to do. It's an annoying thing but there is a decent payoff halfway through the movie.

But don't worry the JJ Trek films don't even come close to the biggest character assassination of them all; Sisko poisoning the atmosphere of those Maquis worlds. To this day I still have not forgiven the episode 'For the Uniform' for having Sisko do this.

Lastly over the years we have all mapped out the flaws, faults and down right stupid moments of all the Star Trek series (and films). So let's also map out the flaws of STID. Orci and Kurtzmen tried to address problems (revealed by fans) of Star Trek 09 and correct them in STID. If we know where STID went wrong in places then that could be vital feedback for the writers of the third Nu Trek film. Let's not shy away from STID's blemishes, that's what I'm saying.

And though I was disappointed with STID I am still hopeful that the third film will be a lot better. So this is not trolling, this is constructive criticism and one little piece in the bigger picture of understanding STID.
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Old September 22 2013, 12:02 AM   #18
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Ln X wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

* Spock wipes Kirk's memory of Rayna to save him the pain. That serves no purpose. And come STV we find out that Kirk never wants he pain taken away.

* Spock forces his katra on McCoy. An act that cause side effects that gets McCoy arrested and facing a life time in a mental hospital. And if Kirk hadn't recovered Spock's body? Sorry Bones, see you on visiting day.

* Spock forcibly restrains a struggling Valeris who was refusing to answer questions. at the time there were fans that raged that that scene was (basically) a rape scene played out in front of the main characters with Kirk demanding information as she screamed out.
Rayna was probably one of those humanoids who Kirk thought was 'the one', so it's a clear case of Spock believing his intentions are right but not really thinking through what would be best for his friend.

But I do agree with your assessment of Spock mind melding with McCoy and the damage done to McCoy. The way I see it's a case of character assassination upon poor old Spock! That was a bad idea period, but sadly a necessary evil to get Kirk and the crew back to the genesis planet.

As for the third case there were some high stakes involved. Chancellor Gorkon was assassinated and a new war looked possible. Lives were on the line and Spock, angry by Valeris' betrayal, forcibly assaults her mind to find out the perpetrators. But that's the point, in that situation it's a case of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. It's a DS9 moment of sorts but I like that, I appreciate that controversial aspect because it serves a point. That's Star Trek at its finest IMO.

Likewise in STID a little character assassination happens to Spock when he performed that mind meld on Pike. It was stupid, immoral and reckless and cheesed me off in the same manner as Prime Spock transferring his katra to McCoy. What were you thinking Spock?

Every series has had moments of character assassination or instances which totally destroy a character's credibility. But I'm a forgiving sort and that's why I rather enjoyed Nu Spock talking about his emotions with Uhura, despite him mentioning his mind meld with Pike- which was a douche thing to do. It's an annoying thing but there is a decent payoff halfway through the movie.

But don't worry the JJ Trek films don't even come close to the biggest character assassination of them all; Sisko poisoning the atmosphere of those Maquis worlds. To this day I still have not forgiven the episode 'For the Uniform' for having Sisko do this.

Lastly over the years we have all mapped out the flaws, faults and down right stupid moments of all the Star Trek series (and films). So let's also map out the flaws of STID. Orci and Kurtzmen tried to address problems (revealed by fans) of Star Trek 09 and correct them in STID. If we know where STID went wrong in places then that could be vital feedback for the writers of the third Nu Trek film. Let's not shy away from STID's blemishes, that's what I'm saying.

And though I was disappointed with STID I am still hopeful that the third film will be a lot better. So this is not trolling, this is constructive criticism and one little piece in the bigger picture of understanding STID.
No one is shying away. But at the same time too, STID can't be singled at as being something unique for a perceived "problem" when it's not. Are lot of "problems" or "Trek would never do "X"..." is less problems with the movie and more the fact that some people just don't like the production team.

As for writer feedback: that kind of got shot in the heart in the wake of Orci Gate.
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Old September 22 2013, 01:22 AM   #19
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
STID can't be singled at as being something unique for a perceived "problem" when it's not. Are lot of "problems" or "Trek would never do "X"..." is less problems with the movie and more the fact that some people just don't like the production team.
The video in question is a list of complaints against STID specifically. Just because there have been other questionable melds doesn't mean that this one, done for no reason as Ln X has pointed out, isn't a valid "Sin".

I also want to know why the Enterprise can get to Qo'Nos and back faster than I can get from DC to Manhattan, and why that barren rock McCoy and Marcus landed on had breathable atmosphere, and why Chekov could beam a free-falling Kirk and Sulu and cancel their velocity in ST09, but couldn't beam Khan up here. I'd also like to know why Carol Marcus wasn't killed by running while beaming.
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Old September 22 2013, 02:14 AM   #20
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Gaith wrote: View Post
I also want to know why the Enterprise can get to Qo'Nos and back faster than I can get from DC to Manhattan, and why that barren rock McCoy and Marcus landed on had breathable atmosphere, and why Chekov could beam a free-falling Kirk and Sulu and cancel their velocity in ST09, but couldn't beam Khan up here. I'd also like to know why Carol Marcus wasn't killed by running while beaming.
These are my own personal explanations.

1) The Enterprise and most Starfleet ships have been equipped with transwarp, or something similar. This could be because transwarp has become common after Voyager's discovery of it, and the Narada took it back in time.

2) I don't have a strong explanation for the atmosphere but I don't see why the Enterprise doesn't have some atmosphere magic or why the planetoid they were on couldn't have a breathable atmosphere, like so many places the crews of the Enterprise have visited.

3) For the beaming, it was said that there's too much interference to beam Khan. Is that a thorough explanation? No, but it's vague enough to work for me so that's fine. Plus beaming in the new movies seems to allow people to move while beaming compared to previously. In the first movie Spock could move and reach out for his mother, and Amanda Grayson's fall even cancelled out her beaming. I actually like this, it shows more strongly that the beaming is a continuous shift and the person on both ends are the same. It lessens the frightening argument that beaming creates new people (although does not eliminate it completely).

With magic tech like transporting I don't think cancelling velocities would be too hard.
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Old September 22 2013, 03:00 AM   #21
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Gaith wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
STID can't be singled at as being something unique for a perceived "problem" when it's not. Are lot of "problems" or "Trek would never do "X"..." is less problems with the movie and more the fact that some people just don't like the production team.
The video in question is a list of complaints against STID specifically. Just because there have been other questionable melds doesn't mean that this one, done for no reason as Ln X has pointed out, isn't a valid "Sin".

I also want to know why the Enterprise can get to Qo'Nos and back faster than I can get from DC to Manhattan, and why that barren rock McCoy and Marcus landed on had breathable atmosphere, and why Chekov could beam a free-falling Kirk and Sulu and cancel their velocity in ST09, but couldn't beam Khan up here. I'd also like to know why Carol Marcus wasn't killed by running while beaming.
1) Because it's the future and Star Trek moves at the speed of plot.

2) Is there a reason why it shouldn't?

3) Different conditions.

4) Why would she be killed? The TOS Enterprise once beamed up a guy from a fighter plane.
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Old September 22 2013, 03:05 AM   #22
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Gaith wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
STID can't be singled at as being something unique for a perceived "problem" when it's not. Are lot of "problems" or "Trek would never do "X"..." is less problems with the movie and more the fact that some people just don't like the production team.
The video in question is a list of complaints against STID specifically. Just because there have been other questionable melds doesn't mean that this one, done for no reason as Ln X has pointed out, isn't a valid "Sin".

I also want to know why the Enterprise can get to Qo'Nos and back faster than I can get from DC to Manhattan, and why that barren rock McCoy and Marcus landed on had breathable atmosphere, and why Chekov could beam a free-falling Kirk and Sulu and cancel their velocity in ST09, but couldn't beam Khan up here. I'd also like to know why Carol Marcus wasn't killed by running while beaming.
Actually, personally, I don't see it as a "valid sin". Spock explains why he did it later in the movie. It wasn't just done, then dropped--Spock had a purpose. As well, as we saw latter, foreshadowing Kirk's request for Spock to help him not to be afraid with Spock cut off from helping Kirk.


As for the rest of it..well all of the complaints in the vid: Trek 101 all of it. If that's a 'problem' or 'mistake' then the whole franchise is guilty. If you want to lay any complaint: it's how close that STID adheres to the Trek formula without taking the big risks. That STID didn't take the opportunities presented to turn the franchise on its head.
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Old September 22 2013, 04:03 AM   #23
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
So Kirk went back to the academy. So, what if Pike never figured out what bar he hiding out in to tell him that he had been given the first officer position, what would Pike have done and it was necessary that his first officer needed to show up at the Daystrum meeting?
That was the same bar from ST XI, wasn't it? IIRC, it is near to where Jim lives (and there's an Academy base nearby, hence the conflict in the original film between the cadets and 'townies'). At the very least, Pike probably figured out long ago that Jim likes to hang out there. And in any case I'm sure that Starfleet officers, inactive or not, can be tracked down with ease.
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Old September 22 2013, 04:24 AM   #24
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No, it's not the same bar. they specified that in dialogue. They said "a place like this."
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Old September 22 2013, 04:25 AM   #25
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Hmmm. For some reason I thought it was the same bar.

Anyhoo, if it's just some dive in SF, then it probably took Pike even less time. Maybe it's a bar near the main Academy grounds that cadets tend to flock to, like that one place in ENT. In which case it'd be easy to find Jim there.
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Old September 22 2013, 04:39 AM   #26
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Kirk wasn't exactly trying to hide anyway. I'm sure someone as resourceful as Pike wouldn't find it that difficult to track down a celebrated captain like Kirk.
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Old September 22 2013, 02:05 PM   #27
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Gaith wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
STID can't be singled at as being something unique for a perceived "problem" when it's not. Are lot of "problems" or "Trek would never do "X"..." is less problems with the movie and more the fact that some people just don't like the production team.
The video in question is a list of complaints against STID specifically. Just because there have been other questionable melds doesn't mean that this one, done for no reason as Ln X has pointed out, isn't a valid "Sin".

I also want to know why the Enterprise can get to Qo'Nos and back faster than I can get from DC to Manhattan, and why that barren rock McCoy and Marcus landed on had breathable atmosphere, and why Chekov could beam a free-falling Kirk and Sulu and cancel their velocity in ST09, but couldn't beam Khan up here. I'd also like to know why Carol Marcus wasn't killed by running while beaming.

Carol Marcus screaming and running during transport was one of the most compelling scenes of the film. Beaming someone against their will might not be the same kind of violation as a involuntary mind meld, but it's up there.

It also found Spock's meld with Pike to be a non-sequitur. It does play into later events in the film, but at the time, Spock really has no reason to do it, other than morbid curiosity. Perhaps he thought Pike was trying to tell him something. Pike's casting about expressions 'could' be interpreted that way.
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Old September 22 2013, 06:02 PM   #28
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

I always thought Spock mind-melding with Pike was a way to comfort him, calming him down in his final moments, in a way, to share his pain.

Besides, in "Dagger of the Mind", Spock's mind-meld seems to have a calming effect on Simon Van Gelder.
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Old September 22 2013, 06:22 PM   #29
Dale Sams
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

Considering the level of nitpick, I'm surprised "Was there NOT a saboteur onboard Enterprise*???" wasn't included. Hell, I sat through the credits to see if there was going to be an extra scene.

*I mean, I'm fine with the Admiral having done something time-delayed rather than having a physical agent onboard, but they sure made it look like someone was onboard.
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Old September 22 2013, 06:24 PM   #30
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Re: Into Darkness - EWW video

^Bingo! You can actually see some of the pain on Pikes face diminish and transfer as Spock establishes the meld.
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