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Old September 21 2013, 03:39 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

I don't know if the dinosaurs are portrayed as *more* immoral than humans. They were arrogant, just like humans, and saw less developed cultures as inferior, just like humans.

I thought the episode was a little too silly. If they were going to introduce a race that was much more powerful than humans they shouldn't have completely ignored that this was an established part of the universe.

And yeah, the cities would have been long deteriorated after 65 million years. But they would have left behind a whole lot of metallic alloys.
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Old September 21 2013, 09:20 AM   #32
Tiberius
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

teacake wrote: View Post
Surely concrete doesn't last 65 million years?
Pavonis wrote: View Post
65 million years is an incredibly long time. I don't think any of you are grasping the scale of time here. What would rebar-reinforced concrete look like after deep burial and metamorphosis at high temperature and pressure for that long? Assuming it would be recognizable and easily stumbled upon by archeologists or paleontologists is naive.
Well, granted, I AM making the assumption that there are things in our civilisation that will last longer than mere old BONE, but if you can find some source that shows that human bones will be the last traces left of our civilisation, please feel free to post it and I'll retract my claim.

However, I think it's safe to say that rebar-reinforced concrete, or cast iron, or titanium mountainb ike frames, or whatever would survive significantly better than a human bone would under the same conditions.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:30 PM   #33
Pavonis
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

"Mere" bone? Are you joking? And what source would you accept? A scientific notebook from an alien paleontologist of 100 million years from now that happened to fall through a wormhole and into my lap? What source do you expect me to find?

I don't know if I even understand your question. You want me to demonstrate somehow that bones - which fossilize and have demonstrably lasted across millions of years, even hundreds of millions of years - will not be outlasted by:
  • rebar-reinforced concrete - which already looks like rocks because concrete is just a mix of cemented rocks. After millions of years it's still going to look just like a rock. Most people already have a hard time telling a piece of concrete from rock now. And the rebar will just rust and react with everything over millions of years. Rebar-reinforced concrete isn't going to last across millions of years.
  • cast iron - which would just look like a lump of rusted iron ore after millions of years in the rock cycle, if it remained in one lump, which is highly unlikely, since it is brittle and will break eventually. Even if a lump of "cast" iron (it wouldn't be "cast" anymore after millions of years) were found by future archaeologists or paleontologists, what would that prove?
  • titanium, which oxidizes eventually at high temperatures, too; it's not indestructible, you know, and let's face it, it's not the most common material in our civilization. Even if a titanium bike frame lasted intact across millions of years, what do you think the odds of it being found are?
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Old September 22 2013, 10:11 AM   #34
oddsigve
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Location: Norway
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

teacake wrote: View Post
oddsigve wrote: View Post
What i found annoying though is the fact that they seemed less "evolved" then us at least on a social pov. what I mean is that the Voyager crew are portrayed as having superior values and a superior moral compass.
That's Star Trek. Gene's vision for humanity only works if everyone else is less nice.
Sounds logical
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Old September 22 2013, 10:43 AM   #35
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
"Mere" bone? Are you joking? And what source would you accept? A scientific notebook from an alien paleontologist of 100 million years from now that happened to fall through a wormhole and into my lap? What source do you expect me to find?

I don't know if I even understand your question. You want me to demonstrate somehow that bones - which fossilize and have demonstrably lasted across millions of years, even hundreds of millions of years - will not be outlasted by:
  • rebar-reinforced concrete - which already looks like rocks because concrete is just a mix of cemented rocks. After millions of years it's still going to look just like a rock. Most people already have a hard time telling a piece of concrete from rock now. And the rebar will just rust and react with everything over millions of years. Rebar-reinforced concrete isn't going to last across millions of years.
  • cast iron - which would just look like a lump of rusted iron ore after millions of years in the rock cycle, if it remained in one lump, which is highly unlikely, since it is brittle and will break eventually. Even if a lump of "cast" iron (it wouldn't be "cast" anymore after millions of years) were found by future archaeologists or paleontologists, what would that prove?
  • titanium, which oxidizes eventually at high temperatures, too; it's not indestructible, you know, and let's face it, it's not the most common material in our civilization. Even if a titanium bike frame lasted intact across millions of years, what do you think the odds of it being found are?
If you'd read the meaning of my post, you will discover that I meant that it is almost impossible that there will come a day when human bones are the only evidence left of human civilisation. We have created structures designed to last for a very long time. The pyramids, the Great Wall of China. they may not survive in a form we can recognise, but an investigation will reveal non-natural origins. Other examples could include the vast road networks across many countires, or the foundations built to support the many absolutely huge buildings that we have constructed. Also dams. Even if they are reduced to apparent rocks, an investigation will show that they are very unusual rocks.

The fact is that any space faring culture will leave behind evidence of that culture in some form.
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Old September 22 2013, 11:21 AM   #36
teacake
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

What if a super race beamed out all non-natural substances?
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Old September 22 2013, 12:39 PM   #37
vulcan redshirt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: UK
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

If there had been an ancient technical civilisation on Earth, there would be evidence. Given how flimsy some critters were that did get fossilised, for example dinosaur eggs, some types of sea shell, insects even, preservation of some remains would be likely. Metals would oxidise, but would leave unusually concentrated zones of elevated concentrations, and in un-natural patterns. for example, deep sea shipwrecks will oxidise, but there will always be a localised abundance of metals in the approximate shape and size of that vessel, unless tectonic process distort those sediments. However, certain inert metals, such as gold and platimum would not degrade, however may be crushed and distorted.

also, any technically advanced civilisation would likely have left evidence of mining in the form of a network of backfilled tunnels. since even ancient trace fossils of burrowing animals have been preserved in locations, again one would expect evidence.

lastly, one would expect to see a depletion in fossil fuels older than a certain age, as a previous technical species would likely have used a lot of this material up , with only newer fossil fuels forming in the millions of years since.

End real life section

if the Voth were truly from Earth, it would therefore seem more likely that they were transplanted by a visiting species, perhaps whilst at a stone-age level of advancement, and continued their development in the DQ. Think of the relocation of that group of Boraalans by Nicolai Rozhenko. If they ever developed into an advanced civilisation, eventually, their scientists would notice a paleontological gap, with no direct ancestors, unlike humans, where there is a direct evolutionary lineage.
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Old September 22 2013, 01:53 PM   #38
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

teacake wrote: View Post
What if a super race beamed out all non-natural substances?
There would still be traces, such as evidence of severe injuries that were healed. Besides, that is a HUGE strecth, and far more consistent with my Preservers hypothesis.
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Old September 22 2013, 03:46 PM   #39
Pavonis
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Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Tiberius wrote: View Post
If you'd read the meaning of my post, you will discover that I meant that it is almost impossible that there will come a day when human bones are the only evidence left of human civilisation. We have created structures designed to last for a very long time. The pyramids, the Great Wall of China. they may not survive in a form we can recognise, but an investigation will reveal non-natural origins.
Oh? What kind of evidence do you expect to remain for the non-natural origins of the Great (Rock) Wall of China, or the (Rock) Pyramids of Giza after millions of years? If you think 5,000 years is old, try imagining a span one thousand times longer! What do you think will remain of those structures after 5 million years, or 50 million?

Other examples could include the vast road networks across many countires, or the foundations built to support the many absolutely huge buildings that we have constructed. Also dams. Even if they are reduced to apparent rocks, an investigation will show that they are very unusual rocks.
Maybe, but the entire asphalt road network of the world would just end up a very thin band among the much thicker rocks in the stratigraphic record. We just haven't been here that long, geologically speaking, and our remains aren't going to be that extensive.

The fact is that any space faring culture will leave behind evidence of that culture in some form.
Evidence, yes. Extensive and easily recognizable evidence, no, I don't agree.
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Old September 23 2013, 01:01 AM   #40
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Oh my God, are you REALLY saying that you think the most long-lasting evidence of all of Human civilisation is going to be a bloody femur? Get real.
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Old September 23 2013, 01:47 AM   #41
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Well, there are fourteen billion femurs in the world, and, what, two hundred billion femurs that have ever existed. Contrast those numbers with the number of things produced in our high-tech society so far. What's a future (or alien) civilization more likely to stumble over - fossilized femurs or a titanium bike frame?
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Old September 23 2013, 03:32 AM   #42
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Are you missing my point intentionally? The Human civilisation has produced things that are going to last a lot longer than a bone. Bones is not the most durable substance we have. Therefore any future civilisation that is able to discover human bones is also going to discover lots of other traces of our civilisation as well.

And if you don't understand that, I don't know what else to say.
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Old September 23 2013, 04:11 AM   #43
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

I can show you "bone" (fossils aren't bones - the tissues and cells have been replaced with minerals) that has lasted dozens of millions of years. Can you show me one thing from our current civilization that will definitely last that long? The pyramids of Giza have lasted about 5000 years, but will be ground to dust over millions of years. Their location isn't going to remain desert indefinitely, and the preservation effects of desert will be quickly undone by different kinds of weather. The roads we built will be buried under sediment and compressed to a thin black line in the stratigraphic record. Our worked metal structures will rust and decay to nothing. We've built nothing that can withstand truly deep time.

Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Old September 23 2013, 04:27 AM   #44
R. Star
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Location: Shangri-La
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Obviously we need to donate our bones to the construction industry after we die.
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Old September 23 2013, 05:39 AM   #45
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The episode "Distant Origin"

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I can show you "bone" (fossils aren't bones - the tissues and cells have been replaced with minerals) that has lasted dozens of millions of years. Can you show me one thing from our current civilization that will definitely last that long? The pyramids of Giza have lasted about 5000 years, but will be ground to dust over millions of years. Their location isn't going to remain desert indefinitely, and the preservation effects of desert will be quickly undone by different kinds of weather. The roads we built will be buried under sediment and compressed to a thin black line in the stratigraphic record. Our worked metal structures will rust and decay to nothing. We've built nothing that can withstand truly deep time.

Sorry to burst your bubble.
Chernobyl.

In 50 million years, some alien is going to investigate it and know something involving happened there.
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