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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 21 2013, 07:22 AM   #31
R. Star
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Kes talked to maybe two or three of them. All of them piloting those bioships. I doubt a soldier flying a single person ship is going to be representative of the whole species. That's like reading the mind of an air force pilot in combat thinking, "Kill all those mfers!" and drawing the conclusion they're going to commit genocide.

Hate to say it, but Voyager was the aggressor with 8472. They tried tractoring their ship, beaming it away, and boarded it without permission. Then they were later seen collaborating with their enemy. Helped them design a biological weapon of mass destruction oh and handed one of their people over to a race of savages that probably disemboweled the fellow. So yeah... some aggressive tendencies towards Voyager are probably to be expected from the people doing the fighting.
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Old September 21 2013, 03:28 PM   #32
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

R. Star wrote: View Post
Kes talked to maybe two or three of them. All of them piloting those bioships. I doubt a soldier flying a single person ship is going to be representative of the whole species. That's like reading the mind of an air force pilot in combat thinking, "Kill all those mfers!" and drawing the conclusion they're going to commit genocide.
But why were they thinking about killing all "inferior species" rather then just killing the Borg, why didn't Kes ever sense an alien who was thinking more rational thoughts or even someone who was just directing their hatred against the Borg? This really makes the Voyager look like idiots in Scorpion, if Kes just read the minds of few aliens and determined they were all bad and Janeway just took her at her word on that, its just bad writing, a retcon that made the crew seem incompetent.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hate to say it, but Voyager was the aggressor with 8472. They tried tractoring their ship, beaming it away, and boarded it without permission. Then they were later seen collaborating with their enemy. Helped them design a biological weapon of mass destruction oh and handed one of their people over to a race of savages that probably disemboweled the fellow. So yeah... some aggressive tendencies towards Voyager are probably to be expected from the people doing the fighting.
Hitler was the aggressor towards Stalin in WWII, that doesn't instantly make Stalin a good guy. The way Species 8472 was presented in Scorpion, made seem like they wanted to commit intergalactic genocide, there was no hint that they were scared little sheep that were just scared for their lives. That plot point came out of nowhere in "In The Flesh", doesn't work because it had no build up and seems to contradict Scorpion.
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Old September 21 2013, 03:35 PM   #33
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

The more you get to know your enemy, the more human, or "neutered" he becomes. That's basically what happens in real life, and that's what happens in storytelling when you keep re-using the same enemy over and over again.

The Borg, Hirogen, Species 8472, Vidians, they all lost their touch sooner or later.
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Old September 21 2013, 03:41 PM   #34
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The more you get to know your enemy, the more human, or "neutered" he becomes. That's basically what happens in real life, and that's what happens in storytelling when you keep re-using the same enemy over and over again.

The Borg, Hirogen, Species 8472, Vidians, they all lost their touch sooner or later.
The point here is I believe...

With species 8472 it happened to fast.
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Old September 21 2013, 03:49 PM   #35
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.
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Old September 21 2013, 04:03 PM   #36
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.
I disagree, having a villain more powerful then the Borg is exciting and makes for a very scary villains. But you don't have them go from monsters to scared little sheep in the course of an episode.
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Old September 21 2013, 04:10 PM   #37
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.
Who was upset?
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Old September 21 2013, 05:30 PM   #38
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Voy-Haters who keep saying Voyager ruined the Borg. There being a single species out there that could fight the Borg and win in a normal fight is where they keep saying the Borg lost all threat whatsoever.

That these creatures were super-powerful aliens from another dimension didn't matter to them, they had such ridiculous ideas of the Borg being some super-duper-threat (they are not) that there being ONE species out there that could fight them totally destroyed their image.

Worse, since it was VOY that created these new aliens, it was just another mark against the show. If it had been TNG or DS9 that created the 8472 aliens no one would care, but since it was VOY it was just another thing to "blame" the show for.
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Old September 21 2013, 05:36 PM   #39
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

You know Anwar, you talk about that more than these so called VOY-haters you're describing.
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Old September 21 2013, 05:54 PM   #40
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Anwar wrote: View Post
Voy-Haters who keep saying Voyager ruined the Borg. There being a single species out there that could fight the Borg and win in a normal fight is where they keep saying the Borg lost all threat whatsoever.

That these creatures were super-powerful aliens from another dimension didn't matter to them, they had such ridiculous ideas of the Borg being some super-duper-threat (they are not) that there being ONE species out there that could fight them totally destroyed their image.

Worse, since it was VOY that created these new aliens, it was just another mark against the show. If it had been TNG or DS9 that created the 8472 aliens no one would care, but since it was VOY it was just another thing to "blame" the show for.
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