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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 20 2013, 12:43 PM   #151
Franklin
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

What if Khan used the Genesis device strategically? Not to destroy Earth or another planet with billions of inhabitants, but he destroys a key strategic Klingon colony? Imagine a Starfleet ship enters the colony's space, Khan delivers the device, and away he goes. The scale of the destruction would be shocking, and the Klingons would not know it was a one-off attack. For all they know, it's just the beginning. They could logically think it was a surprise attack by the Federation and retaliate. So, Khan could possibly start a war that would be very costly in lives and resources across many planets.

If the Feds tried to explain, why would the Klingons believe any Federation explanation that the device was stolen and the attack an act of terror by an individual? In any case, they would blame the Federation and want retribution.
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Last edited by Franklin; September 20 2013 at 02:23 PM.
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Old September 20 2013, 01:04 PM   #152
Shazam!
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Belz... wrote: View Post
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
Well he was able to design weapons and starships in STiD...
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Old September 20 2013, 03:23 PM   #153
Ln X
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Belz... wrote: View Post
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
Good point Belz.

I'm guessing a year passed between ST 09 and STID in the timeline, and even giving Khan the luxury of one whole year to get up to speed, he ain't no android or Data!
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Old September 20 2013, 03:31 PM   #154
SeerSGB
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Belz... wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
Nonsense. Khan took the data from Regula One's computers. Also, being not part of the official record doesn't mean the files don't exist.
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
No assuming. We know the databanks were wiped. He had a one shot weapon, and no one that new the secret.
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Old September 20 2013, 05:09 PM   #155
Set Harth
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
Good point Belz.

I'm guessing a year passed between ST 09 and STID in the timeline, and even giving Khan the luxury of one whole year to get up to speed, he ain't no android or Data!
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Old September 20 2013, 08:36 PM   #156
Nerys Myk
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

In Space Seed it only took a few hours for Khan to figure out how to disable several of the Enterprise's systems and take over the ship. Imagine what he could do with more time and resources.
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Old September 20 2013, 10:48 PM   #157
Hober Mallow
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post

Khan made a choice.

Was it beam up Kirk and kill right there and then, or have Kirk trapped forever more?

If I were feeling as vengeful as Khan I would leave Kirk on that planet. The point is Khan is not a totally ruthless villain, vengeance is Khan's weakness and because Khan made it personal we have a much better movie for it.

This is not a plot hole but simply questioning Khan's motives.
It is a massive plot-hole. MASSIVE. He spent the whole movie wanting to kill Kirk right up to beaming up Genesis and then just changed his mind? I call BULLSHIT.
It's not a plot hole at all. Kirk gave Khan the opportunity to punish him in a more fitting manner than simply killing him. He's going to do to Kirk exactly what Kirk did to him and his wife. Justice. He wasn't settling for anything, he was getting an even better revenge. Hell, Khan flat-out says this. Whether you like that turn or not, it's not a plot hole.
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Old September 20 2013, 11:00 PM   #158
Khan444
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Except that he wanted to kill Kirk before that, and he wanted to kill him afterwards. It may not be a plot hole, but it could be considered out of character considering his actions everywhere else in the movie.
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Old September 21 2013, 01:52 AM   #159
CorporalClegg
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Whether you like that turn or not, it's not a plot hole.
Yes it is. But we've already been over this.
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Old September 21 2013, 05:24 AM   #160
OpenMaw
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Whether you like that turn or not, it's not a plot hole.
Yes it is. But we've already been over this.
No it isn't. The character explains his actions right there in the scene.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:13 AM   #161
CorporalClegg
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Whether you like that turn or not, it's not a plot hole.
Yes it is. But we've already been over this.
No it isn't. The character explains his actions right there in the scene.
So?

From Wiki (emphasis mine):

A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word "pothole," is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
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Old September 21 2013, 05:41 PM   #162
Hober Mallow
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

So any time a character changes his mind that's a plot hole? We're really reaching now.

There are plenty of plot holes and lots of silliness in virtually all the Trek films. Khan taking advantage of the situation to give Kirk a fate he believes is worse than death for Kirk is not one of them.
A plot hole, or plothole, a play on the word "pothole," is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot sometimes even contradicting itself. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
Khan wants revenge. That's entirely consistent throughout the film. When Khan thinks Kirk has accidentally gotten himself into a situation where he can be abandoned and forgotten, where he can get his just deserts, karma, he takes the revenge that fate has given him. Kirk plays it up, practically begging Khan to beam down and kill him, which makes Khan even more adamant that he's simply going to leave Kirk there, to not give Kirk the kind of fate appropriate to a hero, which is either victory of death, but to do to Kirk what he did to Khan's wife, which is to simply leave him.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:22 PM   #163
CorporalClegg
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

It's still a plot hole, but we've been over why. More than once.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:47 PM   #164
Bad Thoughts
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Except that he wanted to kill Kirk before that, and he wanted to kill him afterwards. It may not be a plot hole, but it could be considered out of character considering his actions everywhere else in the movie.
I find it perfectly consistent. Throughout the movie Khan struggles to make effective strategic decisions when confronting Kirk because he lets his emotions overwhelm his judgement. One time he pulls back when Kirk taunts him, believing that he could let Kirk die without risking another costly confrontation. (Khan doesn't know of the Genesis cave (a dead end anyway because of the protomatter) and believes he has the opportunity to hunt down Enterprise.)) The next time, he lets his rage take takeover, following Kirk into the nebula after he is taunted. It's not an issue of Khan changing his mind; it's a matter of him making two sides of his personality--one logical, one violent--canceling each other out.
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Old September 21 2013, 06:54 PM   #165
Khan444
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Except when Kirk taunts him a second time, he flies right into one of the most obvious "I'm baiting you, its a trap" situations in movie history. So, it is inconsistent because he reacts in two COMPLETELY different ways to Kirk's taunts.
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