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Old September 20 2013, 02:45 AM   #31
The Old Mixer
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

More powerful? No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
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Old September 20 2013, 02:49 AM   #32
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Wally wrote: View Post
Exactly. Outside the comic book (which established the Narada had updated Borg tech on it) in the movie Nero was consistently shown as a blue collar "guy" and the Narada was just a mining ship from the future.

That mining ship steamrolled through entire entire armada without a scratch. Even though the thing was huge, it's still just a mining ship.
The problem is that it was not Nero's time to go back in time. That happened accidentally. If he really was hate-crazed against the Federation and intended to destroy Earth and Vulcan of the 24th century, he'd have to get past the 24th century Starfleet. And to do that, he'd need something more impressive than a "simple mining ship." It stands to reason Narada as seen in the movie is upgraded from its original configuration, although it is silly of the comic to say it was enhanced with Borg tech. Even sillier when said Borg tech asserts full control over the ship so it can go to the Delta Quadrant on a spiritual quest to find V'Ger...
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Old September 20 2013, 03:45 AM   #33
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I have to go with the Big E!
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Old September 20 2013, 07:11 AM   #34
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Wally wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

So far as I can recall, we only ever see Federation starships of the 2250s either firing phasers on the Narada or upon one-another (Enterprise and Vengeance). So, no, we have no idea how to compare 23rd Century Abrams Timeline ships' weaponry and defense systems to 24th Century Prime Timeline ships' weaponry and defense systems.

The most we can say is that the Narada, which originated from 2387 of the Prime Timeline as a mining ship, tore damn near every 2258 Abrams Timeline ship she encountered to shreds. We don't know if that's because the standard armaments available to 24th Century mining ships are just that much better than 2258 Abrams Timeline ships', or if it's because the Narada was upgraded with tech that's super-advanced even for the Narada's era.
Exactly. Outside the comic book (which established the Narada had updated Borg tech on it) in the movie Nero was consistently shown as a blue collar "guy" and the Narada was just a mining ship from the future.

That mining ship steamrolled through entire entire armada without a scratch. Even though the thing was huge, it's still just a mining ship.

Meanwhile the Enterprise-E is basically a top of the line Starfleet cruiser. I think it could easily mow down the oversized spooky Vengeance from over 100 years ago.
Except that my point is that we don't know. We don't know if the Narada's armaments were always just that good or if she was upgraded with super-advanced tech even for the 24th Century, and we don't know how 23rd Century Abramsverse tech stacks up to 24th Century Prime tech. We have no idea how they compare, so it's fruitless to speculate.
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Old September 20 2013, 01:22 PM   #35
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The E would obviously win

I don't care how much extra effort they put into the Vengence, it's 100 years old, it's tech is 100 years old, yes its souped up and beefed up but that doesn't matter, The E is simply a far more advanced ship
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Old September 20 2013, 01:32 PM   #36
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Smellmet wrote: View Post
I'd like to think the E would kick it's ass personally, it's 100 years more advanced
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Old September 20 2013, 01:41 PM   #37
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Based on what I believe to be going on with the changes in the timeline, I'd say it's a toss up as to which would come out victorious. So I'll ask this question as a deciding factor: Which ship has the sombrero?
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Old September 20 2013, 04:58 PM   #38
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Infern0 wrote: View Post
The E would obviously win

I don't care how much extra effort they put into the Vengence, it's 100 years old, it's tech is 100 years old, yes its souped up and beefed up but that doesn't matter, The E is simply a far more advanced ship
No.

If you observe the Vengeance on screen you can clearly see the damage it can inflict on a fully shielded federation ship with just a handful of phaser pulses. This is a feat that no other 24th century era ship has accomplished with exception to the Borg cube firing at an Excelsior class ship at Wolf 359.

100 Years between 23rd and 24th centuries in regards to starship combat ability may mean very little if you just evolve the same old technology.

The Enterprise E has demonstrated on screen that it relies on phaser beams and unthreatening evadable photon torpedoes that need to fired in high quantities to do any real damage, just like most starfleet vessels did 100 years back.
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Old September 20 2013, 05:48 PM   #39
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The E should theoretically win, if technological patterns are consistent.

In TNG's "The Emissary" when the D had to deal with an 80-year-old Klingon K'tinga battler cruiser, the concern was never that the ship would harm the Enterprise; indeed, the shots the Klingons did score were described as causing no damage. It was never questioned that the Enterprise could handily destroy the Klingon ship, Picard simply didn't want to have to.

Given the size difference in the Abramsverse, though, one might surmise that technology is proportionally more advanced. OTOH, it might be that Starfleet could always have built such large vessels if they wanted to.
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Old September 20 2013, 06:12 PM   #40
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I suspect Trek Prime did have larger ships than the TOS Enterprise in that era, we just never saw them on-screen. In STIII we see see a large shape looming in the background of spacedock, one of the Planet of the Titans study models, which 80's Treknical fandom turned into the Arial-class shuttlecarrier (Heavy Cruiser Evolution Blueprints)

In the TMP-era novels of years past, we met the mile-long Defender-class (My Enemy, My Ally) with it's unique crew of elephant-sized nonhumanoids, and the 70-deck medical supership USS Recovery (Recovery)
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Old September 20 2013, 06:13 PM   #41
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

anh165 wrote: View Post
If you observe the Vengeance on screen you can clearly see the damage it can inflict on a fully shielded federation ship with just a handful of phaser pulses
A case of having a century year old ship, firing upon another century old ship.

Vengeance verses Enterprise Dee, is like expecting the best world war one fighter plane to take out a modern fifth generation fighter.

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Old September 20 2013, 06:14 PM   #42
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

The Vengeance also had those round things that could detach from the hull and fire separately from the ship so the E-E would have to deal with that too.

I think Vengeance being a ship built solely for war and combat would f**k up our little E quite badly.
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Old September 20 2013, 06:20 PM   #43
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Saul wrote: View Post
The Vengeance also had those round things that could detach from the hull and fire separately from the ship ...
The Enterprise would simply launch a few runabouts to casually destroy them.

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Old September 20 2013, 07:04 PM   #44
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

I guess I need to buy an oil tanker, put a few rockets, torpedoes and sonars on it, and travel back a 100 years in time. Boy that'll revolutionize the navy.
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Old September 20 2013, 07:25 PM   #45
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Re: Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

Saul wrote: View Post
The Vengeance also had those round things that could detach from the hull and fire separately from the ship so the E-E would have to deal with that too.

I think Vengeance being a ship built solely for war and combat would f**k up our little E quite badly.
Yup, the mines she launched ripped the nacelle casings right off the starboard nacelle in a split second, the phasers were still punching holes right into the Enterprise with her shields up several kilometers away.

Nothing in the Primeverse ever did that, even the Scimitar couldn't hit the Enterprise E directly, just bring her shields down by repeated pounding and get one shallow tiny explosion. After firing on her for several minutes one portion of her shields were starting to fail entirely, but only that one.
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