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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 15 2013, 10:09 PM   #91
Mr_Homn
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Something interesting I noticed in TSFS. When Kirk asks Scotty about his progress near the beginning, Scotty says "You'll be fully automated by the time we dock," which garners Kirk's barn door remark. It's never dawned on me until now exactly what Scotty was doing here: he wasn't still fixing battle damage, he was automating the ship to run without all the cadets that the Enteprise off-loaded between movies. It never occurred to me that when they steal the Enterprise later, they had already done a chunk of the work to do it at the beginning of the movie.
Cool. I never realized that either.
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Old September 16 2013, 12:50 AM   #92
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Isn't that odd?

To clarify, I don't mean that I think they were already planning to steal the ship. It's evident that transferring all the kids off left just a skeleton crew on the ship (maybe just the folks in the torpedo bay when Morrow boards?) and so they needed some computer help running her.
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Old September 16 2013, 05:21 AM   #93
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

For a movie that is filled with nonsense & inconsistencies on the important stuff, they are pretty consistent and honest on this, up to a point. They tell you up front he has gotten the automation system going, and that he can finish refitting things or complete repairs to make her spaceworthy in two weeks. That all fits with Kirk's intent to go back out and his belief (in contrast to Morrow's) that the ship can hold up.

In all this, you've can extrapolate that Kirk fully intends to go back, otherwise why bother with all this rush&fix-it stuff?

But there's also one bit of delusional thinking on the part of Scotty & Kirk ... the 'didn't think you'd be taking us into battle' part. In this Morrow turns out to be the one with his head on straight. In the movie era it seems almost a given that if the ship is going anywhere, it is going into battle. I mean, even as a passenger on a training cruise it winds up in battle. It is the ENTERPRISE. It is gonna wind up in battle, even if it is just shooting an asteroid in a wormhole.

Then again, it is just as easy to ascribe the easy crippling of the Enterprise to Bennett's bad writing. I remember a Trek novelist (the one who wrote the ALL OUR YESTERDAYS sequel novels) bitching about why they didn't have a real pitched battle before the stuff shorts out, and it is a very valid criticism, especially since you'd want more sturm & drang to offset the increasing stupidity that follows, like beaming down to a distintegrating planet and THEN trying to negotiate your way off of it, instead of beaming to the BoP and taking it over directly.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:34 PM   #94
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Praetor wrote: View Post
If 100 units corresponds to about three months... then that's about 32 months, or just over two and a half years, which is a bit less than Sulu stated, unless he was rounding up.
In the corresponding TNG thread ("Okuda timeline Canon?") I posted this:

"I have little doubt that Khan, who still considers himself to be the "king" of Earth, counted his days in exile (child's play with the help of his superior intellect) in solar days and solar years.

Also, Chekov didn't protest his "15 years" statement. Just this second an image popped up in my mind with Mr. Okuda taking Chekov's place and saying "Incorrect. It was only 12 years".

Khan: "Make that two [Ceti Eeels] for this character!"

And, for what it's worth, assuming they had intended 1,000 digits to equal one solar year, the difference between Stardate 3.143.3 ("Space Seed") and [1]8130.4 (ST II) is 14.99 years."

The 1,000 digits theory also holds up pretty well for the time that elapsed between ST III and ST IV. After that things apparently moved "south" unless we could assume 11 years between ST II and ST VI (Stardate [2]9521.6)

Bob
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Old September 16 2013, 03:59 PM   #95
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Amasov wrote: View Post
I must say, by the way, I love these types of conversations. True Trekkies in perfect form right here, guys. We can almost rationalize ANYTHING.
Personally, I've never given much thought to the passage of time because TMP and TWOK are so fundamentally different from one another. I've often considered TWOK to be the TRUE first Star Trek film because the characters (with the exception of McCoy) felt so off to me and the movie was so cold in its portrayal.

Sometimes however I think it does little service to Trek to seek out one specific or definitive explanation, in this case, because the two films are so different.
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Old September 16 2013, 04:09 PM   #96
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

trevanian wrote: View Post
For a movie that is filled with nonsense & inconsistencies on the important stuff, they are pretty consistent and honest on this, up to a point. They tell you up front he has gotten the automation system going, and that he can finish refitting things or complete repairs to make her spaceworthy in two weeks. That all fits with Kirk's intent to go back out and his belief (in contrast to Morrow's) that the ship can hold up.

In all this, you've can extrapolate that Kirk fully intends to go back, otherwise why bother with all this rush&fix-it stuff?
Great point - perhaps Kirk thinks that he can convince the brass to let him return if only a small group goes? I've always struggled a bit with just why Kirk wants to go back. In the context of the film, it's always played a bit to me like somehow he knows Spock isn't dead... and I mean completely separate from the McCoy thing, before the Sarek conversation. And even after the Sarek conversation, just what's he going to do, anyway? We know from other sources that Vulcans have a place to put the katras of their dead, either memory walls or kir'sharas, YMMV.

But within the movie, again, it's not made explicitly clear what climbing the steps of Mt. Seleya, with a possessed McCoy and a dead Spock, is supposed to facilitate.

trevanian wrote: View Post
But there's also one bit of delusional thinking on the part of Scotty & Kirk ... the 'didn't think you'd be taking us into battle' part. In this Morrow turns out to be the one with his head on straight. In the movie era it seems almost a given that if the ship is going anywhere, it is going into battle. I mean, even as a passenger on a training cruise it winds up in battle. It is the ENTERPRISE. It is gonna wind up in battle, even if it is just shooting an asteroid in a wormhole.

Then again, it is just as easy to ascribe the easy crippling of the Enterprise to Bennett's bad writing. I remember a Trek novelist (the one who wrote the ALL OUR YESTERDAYS sequel novels) bitching about why they didn't have a real pitched battle before the stuff shorts out, and it is a very valid criticism, especially since you'd want more sturm & drang to offset the increasing stupidity that follows, like beaming down to a distintegrating planet and THEN trying to negotiate your way off of it, instead of beaming to the BoP and taking it over directly.
Agreed. If we ignore the writing, I wonder if there's a limit to just how much can be automated? Maybe certain functions simply require more than four people (I don't count McCoy) operating the ship?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In the corresponding TNG thread ("Okuda timeline Canon?") I posted this:

"I have little doubt that Khan, who still considers himself to be the "king" of Earth, counted his days in exile (child's play with the help of his superior intellect) in solar days and solar years.

Also, Chekov didn't protest his "15 years" statement. Just this second an image popped up in my mind with Mr. Okuda taking Chekov's place and saying "Incorrect. It was only 12 years".

Khan: "Make that two [Ceti Eeels] for this character!"

And, for what it's worth, assuming they had intended 1,000 digits to equal one solar year, the difference between Stardate 3.143.3 ("Space Seed") and [1]8130.4 (ST II) is 14.99 years."

The 1,000 digits theory also holds up pretty well for the time that elapsed between ST III and ST IV. After that things apparently moved "south" unless we could assume 11 years between ST II and ST VI (Stardate [2]9521.6)
Great points... and I wish I'd remembered that thread before I zombie'd this one.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:07 AM   #97
Hober Mallow
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
gottacook is correct - some fans back in the early 80's believed that Wrath of Kahn completely ignored The Motion Picture.
Well, Nick Meyer certainly intentially ignored TMP.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:12 AM   #98
trevanian
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

^It's funny, but when I first saw TWOK and for a few years after, I was convinced that the scene in Spock's quarters had Kirk say, "I wouldn't presume after vger" instead of "I wouldn't presume to debate you" ... then again, when he says he needs warp speed later in the film, I STILL think it sounds like he say thirty minutes instead of three minutes.

My wife thinks my hearing is going, but I tell her it's always been this way.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:36 AM   #99
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
gottacook is correct - some fans back in the early 80's believed that Wrath of Kahn completely ignored The Motion Picture.
Well, Nick Meyer certainly intentially ignored TMP.
So, TWOK was a reboot of TMP.
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Old September 19 2013, 11:15 AM   #100
Robert Comsol
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

No, TMP was a reboot of "The Changeling", TWOK was a reboot of "Balance of Terror"

Bob
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Old September 19 2013, 12:50 PM   #101
JarodRussell
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
gottacook is correct - some fans back in the early 80's believed that Wrath of Kahn completely ignored The Motion Picture.
Well, Nick Meyer certainly intentially ignored TMP.
He didn't when he reused the exterior shots of the ship and all of the interior sets. And when Kirk was still an Admiral.

Just because there is no reference to the "V'Ger incident" it didn't ignore the film.

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
So, TWOK was a reboot of TMP.
Why, because of the new uniforms?

It's not like the films don't fit together, because they do.



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
No, TMP was a reboot of "The Changeling", TWOK was a reboot of "Balance of Terror"

Bob
That's a remake or re-telling, not a reboot.
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Old September 19 2013, 12:51 PM   #102
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

For what it's worth, Star Trek: Generations established that 78 years transpired between the maiden voyage of the Enterprise-B (2293) and the final voyage of the Enterprise-D (2371).
That's something else I've never fully understood. Why does the beginning of GEN have to take place in the same year as TUC? It would make more sense if it was a year or two later, as TUC ends with the Enterprise-A being decommisioned, and GEN begins with Enterprise-B ready to launch.
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Old September 19 2013, 04:52 PM   #103
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Noddy wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

For what it's worth, Star Trek: Generations established that 78 years transpired between the maiden voyage of the Enterprise-B (2293) and the final voyage of the Enterprise-D (2371).
That's something else I've never fully understood. Why does the beginning of GEN have to take place in the same year as TUC? It would make more sense if it was a year or two later, as TUC ends with the Enterprise-A being decommisioned, and GEN begins with Enterprise-B ready to launch.
Actually, I do think it makes perfect sense for the decommissioning of the Enterprise-A and the commissioning of the Enterprise-B to take place in the same year, especially from a Starfleet P.R. standpoint. I believe the Enterprise-B was in the final stages of her construction at the time of Star Trek VI and that it was planned long ago that she was going to replace the Enterprise-A.
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Old September 19 2013, 10:52 PM   #104
Hober Mallow
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

umichigan wrote: View Post
Personally, I've never given much thought to the passage of time because TMP and TWOK are so fundamentally different from one another. I've often considered TWOK to be the TRUE first Star Trek film because the characters (with the exception of McCoy) felt so off to me and the movie was so cold in its portrayal.

Sometimes however I think it does little service to Trek to seek out one specific or definitive explanation, in this case, because the two films are so different.
Nick Meyer's Trek is so different from Roddenberry's Trek, I don't even try to reconcile them. In Meyer's Trek, Starfleet is virtually all military, and David even refers to them as "the military" without, I think, any facetiousness or exaggeration. Also, I think Kirk's story works better if you disregard his character arc from TMP and consider TWOK Kirk an adaption, a retelling of the TMP arc. In both TMP and TWOK, Kirk has become an admiral but still longs to return to the big chair. For me, TWOK arc works better if Kirk hasn't been in the Captain's chair since TOS. The way the arc was played in TMP, I don't think that Kirk would have given up the command chair.
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Old September 20 2013, 02:36 AM   #105
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Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The way the arc was played in TMP, I don't think that Kirk would have given up the command chair.
Perhaps, but the other way to look at it is Kirk was ultra career-driven and they gave him an offer he couldn't refuse. Maybe "You can be Admiral, and always have the option of taking the Enterprise back after the refit if you want." So, he got extra $$ for a few years, sat pretty at a desk job, and waited to take the reins of Starfleet's flagship again.
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