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Old September 19 2013, 06:44 PM   #31
dub
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

I don't have a problem with the song. I think it's fine for wedding anniversaries as has been mentioned in the past. I just didn't think it worked for the open of this show. Unless the open showed Archer singing it with the crew playing instruments and singing back-up in the background. And occasional shots of fat Riker in the audience. With comic sans font for the credits. Fuchsia. I wouldn't harp on it then. That would be silly.
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Old September 19 2013, 07:09 PM   #32
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

dub wrote: View Post
I just didn't think it worked for the open of this show.
Why not? As I've said, the lyrics are a perfect fit.
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Old September 19 2013, 07:30 PM   #33
Yanks
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Christopher wrote: View Post
What always surprised me were the people who objected to "Faith of the Heart" because they insisted, "A Star Trek theme needs to be an orchestral piece, not a pop song!" They didn't seem to realize that the TOS theme was very much written in the popular song style of the day, a pastiche of "Beyond the Blue Horizon" with a bossa nova rhythm inspired by "Begin the Beguine." Not to mention that the main melodic line was sung by a soprano in the second- and third-season arrangements. And of course Roddenberry wrote (bad) lyrics for it so he could get royalties from the sheet-music sales.
This is purely a personal thing. Either you like it or you don't. What kind of music or when really is immaterial. The TOS theme was very "60's" for those around then. It's just the "Star Trek theme" for all us that weren't.

I didn't, because of the very reason you stated. I had just watched DS9 & Voyager when I first saw Enterprise and I was accustomed to the orchestral pieces. They were very much a part of "trek" for me and Enterprises' 'Faith of the Heart' didn't set well at all. I loved the video montage though.

The same was true for me the first time I saw ST09. For whatever reason, I didn't enjoy the music. Now I think it's one of the finest scores in trek movie history.

Now I've grown to like Faith of the Heart as well. (but I skipped it and cringed each time I watched Enterprise the first couple time I watched the series) I even know all the words!
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Old September 19 2013, 08:17 PM   #34
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Yanks wrote: View Post
This is purely a personal thing. Either you like it or you don't. What kind of music or when really is immaterial.
Well, yeah, but I'm not talking about people's tastes in general. I'm referring only to those specific people who voiced objections to the very concept of a Star Trek theme being a popular song, as if that had never been done before, when in fact it essentially had been.
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Old September 19 2013, 09:18 PM   #35
dub
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

I get what you're saying, Christopher. But the lyrics weren't really the issue for me. I think what I liked about the theme songs for TNG, VOY and DS9 is that they could use a few notes or lines from the theme within the scores of individual episodes from time to time throughout each series to drive home an emotion or an idea, or even just a musical voice as we see a shot of the ship, or space station, or a Captain, or colleagues/friends in a touching moment. And for me, there was an emotional connection there to the theme songs in that way. They couldn't really do that with the "Faith" song without sounding like bad elevator music. It didn't lend itself well to orchestral scores. Archer's Theme on the other hand, that was nice and could be used (and was used) in the scores. The opening credits offers a whole minute at the beginning of each episode to help set the tone for the show. And I just think it would have been better to use Archer's Theme in the open to make the emotional connection to the theme even stronger. As far as TOS goes, Courage may have written a theme song in a '60s style, but it has proven to be a great theme for a variety of styles (not just the jazzy style of the show's open). They used the opening fanfare a lot throughout the series, and of course again in TNG. And the main part of the theme was used nicely in several of the films to set the tone for different scenes. And as we've seen with the JJ Abrams films, it has stood the test of time. "Faith" just doesn't have that flexibility. Archer's Theme does.

But, really as Yanks said, it's subjective. I seem to agree with most of what he said. And he said it in a much more articulate way than I could.
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Old September 19 2013, 09:51 PM   #36
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

dub wrote: View Post
I think what I liked about the theme songs for TNG, VOY and DS9 is that they could use a few notes or lines from the theme within the scores of individual episodes from time to time throughout each series to drive home an emotion or an idea, or even just a musical voice as we see a shot of the ship, or space station, or a Captain, or colleagues/friends in a touching moment. And for me, there was an emotional connection there to the theme songs in that way. They couldn't really do that with the "Faith" song without sounding like bad elevator music.
I think the opening few lines of the song have a pretty nice melody, and I really love what the cello does under "But my time is finally near" in the season 1-2 arrangement. They did use snippets of the theme orchestrally a couple of times in the first season, and there's an instrumental version under the end titles of the pilot.

Although I agree, "Archer's Theme" works better as a leitmotif.
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Old September 19 2013, 10:51 PM   #37
Yanks
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

dub wrote: View Post
I get what you're saying, Christopher. But the lyrics weren't really the issue for me. I think what I liked about the theme songs for TNG, VOY and DS9 is that they could use a few notes or lines from the theme within the scores of individual episodes from time to time throughout each series to drive home an emotion or an idea, or even just a musical voice as we see a shot of the ship, or space station, or a Captain, or colleagues/friends in a touching moment. And for me, there was an emotional connection there to the theme songs in that way. They couldn't really do that with the "Faith" song without sounding like bad elevator music. It didn't lend itself well to orchestral scores. Archer's Theme on the other hand, that was nice and could be used (and was used) in the scores. The opening credits offers a whole minute at the beginning of each episode to help set the tone for the show. And I just think it would have been better to use Archer's Theme in the open to make the emotional connection to the theme even stronger. As far as TOS goes, Courage may have written a theme song in a '60s style, but it has proven to be a great theme for a variety of styles (not just the jazzy style of the show's open). They used the opening fanfare a lot throughout the series, and of course again in TNG. And the main part of the theme was used nicely in several of the films to set the tone for different scenes. And as we've seen with the JJ Abrams films, it has stood the test of time. "Faith" just doesn't have that flexibility. Archer's Theme does.

But, really as Yanks said, it's subjective. I seem to agree with most of what he said. And he said it in a much more articulate way than I could.
Wow. Thanks!

Good point about using the score during the episodes. 'Faint' doesn't lend itself to that very well.

I'm a big fan of 'Archer's Theme'. I used to look forward to the end credits just to listen to it Sometimes I even tear up thinking they shouldn't have been cut short.

I know, I'm a sap.
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Old September 19 2013, 11:25 PM   #38
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Christopher wrote: View Post
and there's an instrumental version under the end titles of the pilot.
And it's absolutely beautiful. Actually made me tear up once.
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Old September 19 2013, 11:57 PM   #39
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Taste in music whether it be instrumental/lyrics is highly subjective. For me I'm not sure Archer's Theme would work as an opening theme. to me the tempo when compared to the other themes seems off.

"Faith of the Heart" did fit the overall theme of the show. Though I prefered the orginal S1-2 version and didn't see a need to change it (for the worse).
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Old September 22 2013, 04:34 PM   #40
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

I've always had a soft spot for the cheesy sincerity of "Faith of the Heart" and its lyrics, but reading over this thread made me realize that it's really a self-congratulatory song that's an odd fit for a prequel series. Yes, I get that humanity has triumphed over its own demons and violent history, and is celebrating that, but the show is about us only beginning to make it into deep space, and as such, a "yeah, we've accomplished so much!" song doesn't really stoke the fires of excitement.

Instead, something much faster-paced than the DS9, Voyager and even TNG themes could have been more effective. Something like the "Can You Dig It" theme from Iron Man 3, say.
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Old September 22 2013, 06:35 PM   #41
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

^As I said, I don't see the song so much as a mission statement for Star Trek as a whole as a perfect fit for Archer's state of mind at the start of the series. He's frustrated that "It's been a long road" getting to the point of testing the Warp 5 engine, but he's determined that "my time is finally here." He's eager to see his father's "dream come alive at last" and to "touch the sky," and the Vulcans are "not gonna hold me down no more" and "not gonna change my mind." And so on. Maybe it wasn't so good a fit for the Archer of later seasons, as he gained more, well, seasoning, but for the Archer of season 1, and particularly of "Broken Bow," it's dead-on.
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Old September 22 2013, 07:08 PM   #42
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I am one of the few people who likes the Enterprise opening. That said, having U2 would have been cool. The Calling, not so much.
I'm one of the even fewer people, perhaps, who hated the show (I've only seen about four episodes) but liked the theme. I liked that they didn't just do the same damn thing as the other Trek shows. Go figure.
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Old September 24 2013, 12:25 PM   #43
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
This is purely a personal thing. Either you like it or you don't. What kind of music or when really is immaterial.
Well, yeah, but I'm not talking about people's tastes in general. I'm referring only to those specific people who voiced objections to the very concept of a Star Trek theme being a popular song, as if that had never been done before, when in fact it essentially had been.
I don't have an issue with a pop song for an opener. While I think the theme they chose is lyrically relevant to the broad strokes of the show, what I find jarring is that after an intense cold open the song punctures the tension (and that's the commercial's job!). It's a shame because visually it is my favorite title sequence, in part because it is as specific as (with all due respect to Diane Warren) the lyrics are generic.

That said, I'm thankful that on the Blu-rays CBS has put a chapter stop after all intros. I've seen all the intros so much by now that I skip them more often than not. Much as I like TNG's rousing arrangement of TMP's theme, the credits are visually tedious. DS9 has always sounded stilted to me. For me, Voyager (my least favorite TV incarnation) has the strongest overall sound and visual one-two-punch.
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Old September 24 2013, 02:01 PM   #44
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

IronWaffle wrote: View Post
Much as I like TNG's rousing arrangement of TMP's theme...
Hm? As far as I can tell, it's essentially the exact same arrangement, just for a smaller orchestra. It's just conducted differently, and to my ear less deftly, so it's not as pleasant to listen to as the performances conducted by Goldsmith.
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Old September 24 2013, 05:37 PM   #45
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Re: Is this the Enterprise theme that could have been?

Christopher wrote: View Post
IronWaffle wrote: View Post
Much as I like TNG's rousing arrangement of TMP's theme...
Hm? As far as I can tell, it's essentially the exact same arrangement, just for a smaller orchestra. It's just conducted differently, and to my ear less deftly, so it's not as pleasant to listen to as the performances conducted by Goldsmith.
Good catch. Arrangement is the wrong word. Listening to the End Credits now (with Ilia's Theme interjected), it's evident there's more air in the recording and the horn players are more expressive -- even listening to the compressed mp3 on tinny earbuds.

I also agree the TNG version sounds like a smaller orchestra, which is all the more pronounced now that I have a quality audio rig at home. Nevertheless, even first run the tempo always felt faster, making it less majestic to me. Like you, I'd mostly chalk it up to Goldsmith's conducting chops being stronger than McCarthy's (better engineering, too). Still, I'm glad they resurrected the TMP theme rather than go with McCarthy's own rejected submission.

Off-topic, I sometimes attend lectures at the Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum and its great sitting in their IMAX theater beforehand and hear Goldsmith's theme play through their system. Unfortunately, Spinal Tap obviously isn't behind the boards because the volume is far from 11.
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