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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2013, 10:14 PM   #91
SeerSGB
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

Mach5 wrote: View Post
umichigan wrote: View Post
Roddenberry, for all his faults, created Star Trek out of fresh ideas
You've never seen Forbidden Planet, have you? Or read Hornblower for that matter.
I say the Hornblower thing is more prevalent from TWOK onward. TOS and Kirk's character in that era strikes me more as Forbidden Planets meets Western. Not Wagon Train (which is what Gene allegedly sold the show as being but in space) but Kirk is more the White Hat that rides into town and kicks a little ass, woos the local girls, and rides into the sunset at the end.

If you stripped everything sci-fi out of TOS, you'd have at the end a standard issue Western.
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Old September 18 2013, 10:15 PM   #92
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

As Bob Justman said about Gene Roddenberry lifting ideas from others and magically 'making' them his own:

"The Great Blotter of the Galaxy"
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Old September 18 2013, 10:39 PM   #93
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
umichigan wrote: View Post
Roddenberry, for all his faults, created Star Trek out of fresh ideas
You've never seen Forbidden Planet, have you? Or read Hornblower for that matter.
I say the Hornblower thing is more prevalent from TWOK onward. TOS and Kirk's character in that era strikes me more as Forbidden Planets meets Western. Not Wagon Train (which is what Gene allegedly sold the show as being but in space) but Kirk is more the White Hat that rides into town and kicks a little ass, woos the local girls, and rides into the sunset at the end.

If you stripped everything sci-fi out of TOS, you'd have at the end a standard issue Western.
Don't you remember the time Shatner played a cowboy and an indian in the same movie? Lmao
1968's The White Comanche
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Old September 18 2013, 10:52 PM   #94
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages



I had never seen that!

Thanks Seer.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:28 AM   #95
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

Franklin wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

If you've read anything at all about Roddenberry, you'd know that his name and integrity never belong in the same sentence.
I keep telling people, Cochrane in FC is a dig at Roddenberry. The more I've read about Gene--and I'm not talking about his personal or family life, I'm talking purely professional life--the more I think they wrote Cochrane as a way of taking on the "Great Bird" and the hero worship some fans (the TNG crew) has for him.
Never heard that, before. It's a very valid comparison, whether it was done deliberately or purely coincidental. I'm jealous of you for not having thought of that, myself.
It's actually an old theory. One which Berman, Braga, and Ron Moore have denied was their intention. But it is a valid comparison all the same.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:38 AM   #96
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I want a NuTrek Borg film. Maybe have Uhura assimilated by the Borg and made Queen. Spock loses control of his emotions...again. The proceeds to go Captain Ahab on the Borg for stealing his love away. Kirk can then command the Enterprise in a space battle against a cube. Since the NuEnt's tactical feats only account for shooting down missiles.
Have them all assimilated, and 100 years later, nuChakotay can throw them all out the airlock and be done with the whole mess.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:41 AM   #97
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

I keep telling people, Cochrane in FC is a dig at Roddenberry. The more I've read about Gene--and I'm not talking about his personal or family life, I'm talking purely professional life--the more I think they wrote Cochrane as a way of taking on the "Great Bird" and the hero worship some fans (the TNG crew) has for him.
Never heard that, before. It's a very valid comparison, whether it was done deliberately or purely coincidental. I'm jealous of you for not having thought of that, myself.
It's actually an old theory. One which Berman, Braga, and Ron Moore have denied was their intention. But it is a valid comparison all the same.
Yeppers. A lot have either forgotten about it or didn't know about. Whatever their real intention (and I don't buy it wasn't on purpose, but that's my opinion), they created something that rings true about fandom if nothing else.
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Last edited by SeerSGB; September 19 2013 at 04:21 AM.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:53 AM   #98
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

It rings true about all hero worship.

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sumbitch or another." - Mal "Firefly, Jaynestown."
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Old September 19 2013, 07:32 AM   #99
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
It rings true about all hero worship.

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sumbitch or another." - Mal "Firefly, Jaynestown."
WORD!

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Old September 19 2013, 03:02 PM   #100
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

Yanks wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
umichigan wrote: View Post
Roddenberry, for all his faults, created Star Trek out of fresh ideas
You've never seen Forbidden Planet, have you? Or read Hornblower for that matter.
Chalk one up to Mach5!

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Old September 19 2013, 03:23 PM   #101
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

Lyon_Wonder wrote: View Post
Parasite aliens?

The S1 TNG episode "Conspiracy" had parasite aliens who took over the bodies of high ranking Starfleet officers to subvert the Federation, a species whose identities and full motives were left unresolved after Picard and Riker defeated the aliens' infiltration of Starfleet. Perhaps in the Abramsverse the parasite species have an interest in the Federation a century earlier.
The novels make the parasites a dangerous Trill offshoot of some kind (I don't recall the details), but I don't recall the concept being followed up to a satisfying conclusion. I'd love to revisit the parasites.....one of TNG's few major unresolved cliffhangers.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:24 PM   #102
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

umichigan wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post

So you only like because other people do?
It seems that there are some who rather Trek die with it's limited appeal because it worked OK in their day and to their own tastes of relentless technobabble and cheesy exchange of dialog than to attract and inspire many more people who could like Trek and become life long fans themselves.
That's not a fair assessment IMHO. Abrams and the writers would have more credibility with me if they developed some original material for our traditional characters. It's the alternate timeline that sticks in my craw. Pre-TOS material could've been terrific on its own. Take the characters through the academy and their initial sojourns into space. Pike could've been the vehicle to tie it all together. Instead, we have to destroy 2 fundamental cultures (and their homes), kill off Kirk's father and ruin his childhood, in essence changing all the core events that created the Kirk and crew that we know AND have come to love. As I wrote in an earlier post, all Abrams has done is to turn everything upside down and call it art. Are you telling me that all of the character destruction was necessary to make Trek accessible to newer audiences? Rubbish.
What is shocking is you have a single minded idea of how Trek should be and that Paramount, Abrams, the writing staff should change the direction they took which made millions and entertained a much wider audience in order to please the minority.

Besides I find your alternative ideas of characterisation very typical of 1990's Trek obsession of self-indulgence and constant canon self reference.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:31 PM   #103
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

anh165 wrote: View Post
umichigan wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
It seems that there are some who rather Trek die with it's limited appeal because it worked OK in their day and to their own tastes of relentless technobabble and cheesy exchange of dialog than to attract and inspire many more people who could like Trek and become life long fans themselves.
That's not a fair assessment IMHO. Abrams and the writers would have more credibility with me if they developed some original material for our traditional characters. It's the alternate timeline that sticks in my craw. Pre-TOS material could've been terrific on its own. Take the characters through the academy and their initial sojourns into space. Pike could've been the vehicle to tie it all together. Instead, we have to destroy 2 fundamental cultures (and their homes), kill off Kirk's father and ruin his childhood, in essence changing all the core events that created the Kirk and crew that we know AND have come to love. As I wrote in an earlier post, all Abrams has done is to turn everything upside down and call it art. Are you telling me that all of the character destruction was necessary to make Trek accessible to newer audiences? Rubbish.
What is shocking is you have a single minded idea of how Trek should be and that Paramount, Abrams, the writing staff should change the direction they took which made millions and entertained a much wider audience in order to please the minority.

Besides I find your alternative ideas of characterisation very typical of 1990's Trek obsession of self-indulgence and constant canon self reference.
The sure sign of a weak argument is when one of the participants resorts to a personal attack. Furthermore, your appeal to evidence by pointing out that millions were entertained, etc. is a classic straw man fallacy.
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Last edited by umichigan; September 19 2013 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts
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Old September 19 2013, 03:39 PM   #104
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post

So you only like because other people do?
It's worthy of praise as it made Trek very accessible and relevant in 2013. The box office and non-trekkie critics reflect that.

To re-launch Trek with those high budgets in the way how you are familiar with Trek back in 1994-1999 would further make Trek so elite, inaccessible and even unpalatable beyond repair.

It seems that there are some who rather Trek die with it's limited appeal because it worked OK in their day and to their own tastes of relentless technobabble and cheesy exchange of dialog than to attract and inspire many more people who could like Trek and become life long fans themselves.
That's a false dichotomy. Plenty of Star Trek has had commercial appeal in spite of (1) being "heady", (2) skimping on the special effects, and (3) preferring dialogue over action. It's difficult to account for the successes of TVH or TNG without noticing those things. And even though it used military-style conflict, TWOK was weak in terms of special effects, even for its day. Conversely, Nemesis still sucked even though it was thematically lighter, had a bigger effects budget, emphasized more action, and was directed by someone who could care less for trek.
What counts as 'commercial appeal' back in 1982 and 1986 is not the same as in 2013.

Things have changed, whether or not you think it has progressed artistically.

High budget films are not made to tick the boxes of a few demanding fans, it is there to make money by mass appeal.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:42 PM   #105
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Re: No More Wrath of Khan Homages

umichigan wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post
umichigan wrote: View Post

That's not a fair assessment IMHO. Abrams and the writers would have more credibility with me if they developed some original material for our traditional characters. It's the alternate timeline that sticks in my craw. Pre-TOS material could've been terrific on its own. Take the characters through the academy and their initial sojourns into space. Pike could've been the vehicle to tie it all together. Instead, we have to destroy 2 fundamental cultures (and their homes), kill off Kirk's father and ruin his childhood, in essence changing all the core events that created the Kirk and crew that we know AND have come to love. As I wrote in an earlier post, all Abrams has done is to turn everything upside down and call it art. Are you telling me that all of the character destruction was necessary to make Trek accessible to newer audiences? Rubbish.
What is shocking is you have a single minded idea of how Trek should be and that Paramount, Abrams, the writing staff should change the direction they took which made millions and entertained a much wider audience in order to please the minority.

Besides I find your alternative ideas of characterisation very typical of 1990's Trek obsession of self-indulgence and constant canon self reference.
The sure sign of a weak argument is when one of the participants resorts to a personal attack. Furthermore, your appeal to evidence by pointing out that millions were entertained, etc. is a classic straw man fallacy.
Personal attack? I simply made an opinion that your ideas of Trek is not suitable for today's audience due to its self indulgence, no one gives a damn if Kirk liked to play baseball, or if Chekov liked to collect romulan postage stamps. It is poor story telling to waste minutes of screen time forcing audences to listen to trival facets of character's history that has no significant contribution to the story telling. Again all IMHO.

The same way you express your opinion that JJ Trek is guilty of 'character destruction'.

P.S - People are not forced to watch Star Trek into darkness, yet many of them have paid up with their own money and invested 2+hrs of their time and many of them came out smiling. For me as a trek fan, that is one of the best things that can happen!
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